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Thai School Daze
A Thai teacher blogs about religion, science, teaching, politics, anything really.
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat
Monday , September 17 , 2007
THE HISTORICAL BUDDHA--AN EARTH-MOVING DISCOVERY?
Posted by Trirat , Reader : 8028 , 17:01:13  
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Searching for the Buddha

Please visit my Buddha Myth blog here: http://thaimangoes.blogspot.com/2009/08/g9.html

I’ve been searching for the historical Buddha, the man behind the myth, and learned of an earth-moving discovery by an Indian researcher. All right, perhaps the earth didn’t move, but for me it seemed to have. The discovery by Ranajit Pal was that Buddhism arose in Iran, not India. I’ll come back to this later. First let me put the whole thing in context.
There are not many books that do more than repeat the usual legends. Walk into any bookstore, go to the section on religious books, open any book on Buddhism, and they begin something like this:

 Siddhartha Gautama was a prince of the Sakya kingdom. His father was King Siddhodana"

 I would riffle through the book and put it down. If the author is just going to repeat legend in his very first paragraphs, would the rest of the book be of any use as history?

 I did find a reprint of “The Life of Buddha as Legend and History,” first published in 1927, by Edward J. Thomas (1869-1958). He was a librarian in India and wrote several books on Buddhism. He says: “All the forms of the legend of Buddha’s birth assume that he was the son of a king. It is generally agreed that this is unhistorical, and it has been usual to deduct the evidently incredible portions and leave the rest as history.”

 If Gautama wasn’t the son of a king, what are we to make of the legend in which his father tries to prevent him from learning about sickness, old age, and death? which is the reason that started the Buddha off on his quest for Enlightenment.

 John Keay, “History of India” (2000): “Trade and craftsmanship were more the Buddha’s milieu than royal ceremonial. The affluence against which he eventually reacted by renouncing his wife and family to begin an enquiry into the human condition may have been real; equally it may have been the perceived luxury of more celebrated urban centers like Vaisali, capital of the Licchavis, or the Koshalan metropolis of Sravasti, or Rajagriha in Magadha.”

 

Of course some scholars have doubted whether Gautama was a historical person in the first place. H.H. Wilson (1786-1860) (translator of the Rig Veda into English) wrote that it was “not impossible, after all, that Sakya Muni (another name for Gautama Buddha) is an unreal being, and that all that is related of him is as much a fiction as is that of his preceding migrations.”

 But let’s assume Buddha was a historical person. So where was he born? Legend has it that he was born in a park at Lumbini, near a town called Kapilavastu (the capital of his father's 'kingdom'). And where is Kapilavastu?

 The location of ancient Kapilavastu is still not unanimously accepted. Generally, Indian guidebooks consider Piprahwa to be the real Kapilavastu, while Nepalese guidebooks consider Tilaurakot to be the real Kapilavastu.

 According to Heather Hindman ("Touring Lumbini: On Buddhist Centers and National Margins”, University of Chicago), “The location of the sage's birth lies in the ancient land ruled by the father of Siddhartha, which probably crosses the current border of Nepal and India. Yet, in the present era in which a major tourist site can dramatically alter the economy of a small country like Nepal, the two nations find it vital to fix the location of the birth on one side of the border or the other."

But there is compelling evidence to show that Lumbini is an astonishing fraud, begun in 1896, and unwittingly fostered ever since. The man responsible was Dr Alois Anton Führer, a German archaeologist employed by the (British) Government of the North-Western Provinces and Oudh between 1885-98, and co-discoverer of the present Lumbini site. See this website for details: "Lumbini on Trial: The Untold Story" (http://www.lumkap.org.uk/).

The golden Buddha, Wat Trimit
Now comes the earth-moving discovery by the Indian researcher, Ranajit Pal. He claims that Buddhism arose, not in North India, but in what is now Iran, that part of Iran which was formerly a part of India (so called India within Iran). See "Zoroaster and Gotama in a Non-Jonesean Framework" (http://www.ranajitpal.com/zoroaster.html):

Pal sees William Jones as having unwittingly helped to place the birthplace of Buddhism in North India. Jones (1746-1794) was a philologist and polymath who proposed that Sanskrit and European languages are related and descended from a common language, now extinct, given the name Indo-European.

Jones, who was a judge in India, was entranced by Indian culture, an as-yet untouched field in European scholarship, and founded the Asiatic Society of Bengal. Over the next ten years he would produce a flood of works on India, launching the modern study of the subcontinent in virtually every social science. He also wrote on the local laws, music, literature, botany, and geography, and made the first English translations of several important works of Indian literature.

So he more or less invented Indology. But, according to Pal, he made one blunder, which was to locate Alexander the Great’s Palibothra at Patna, right in India’s heartland. This caused others to look for Kapilavastu in North India/Nepal.

“Owing to Jonesian delusions and Führer’s skulduggery, it has remained unknown that Buddhism came of age in India but was born and reared in the chrysalis of Persia. Although persecuted by kings, it once flourished in Iran. That the cultural history of Nepal offers nothing that can be seen as a prelude to Buddhism is not surprising in view of the numerous forgeries that underlie Nepalese archaeology.”

(Please see comment 7 below for further clarification by Dr. Ranajit Pal.)

I haven’t found a mainstream historian who is willing to go along with this yet, but--if proven--this addresses one of those puzzles: if Buddhism arose in North India, why is Greco-Buddhist art older than Indian Buddhist art? It also explains what the Bamiyan Buddhas were doing in Afghanistan, though sadly no more.

 

Left: Seated Buddha of the Gandhara school, second century BCE. Shows Greek influence in facial features and toga.

 Center: Seated Buddha from Sarnath, fifth century CE.

Right: Bamiyan Buddha (sixth century CE) before it was dynamited by the Taleban. Greco-Buddhist style.

According to a Wikipedia article: “Chinese Buddhist pilgrim Hsüan-tsang (Xuanzang) passed through the area around AD 630 and described Bamiyan as a flourishing Buddhist center "with more than ten monasteries and more than a thousand monks", and he noted that both Buddha figures were "decorated with gold and fine jewels" (Wriggins, 1995).”
 If Buddhism's birthplace is North India as currently believed, it would seem incredible for Buddhism to have spread from East to West so quickly, reversing the traditional West to East flow of migrations.

 

This map is taken from one of Ranajit Pal's websites. I have indicated by a circle the part of India within Iran in 4th century BC. Pal says that Alexander’s victory celebrations over the Indians at Kohnouj proves that southeast Iran was within India in the 4th century BC.


Read comment

comment 106
mejda date : 25/11/2011 time : 11.17
http://ranajitpal-jesus-from-asia-minor.blogspot.com/2011/06/jesus-christ-was-amyntas-of-galatia_20.html

Dear Trirat,

The Christian churches mentioned by St. Paul at Lystra, Derbe, Antioch in Pisidia etc. are the oldest known, but it is stunning to realize that behind these time-worn establishments hides a cherubic figure who appears to be the founder of Christianity. Antioch and its sister cities (άδελφή) Lystra and Tavium were all centers of Amyntas of Galatia,the forgotten hero of Asia Minor of the 1st century B.C. whose name may have been Amen and whose palace was at Isauria.

Ranajit Pal
comment 105
Trirat date : 11/01/2011 time : 23.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

I agree that Christianity plagiarized from Mahayana Buddhism. Please see my blog: http://thaimangoes.blogspot.com/2009/08/d9.html
comment 104
mejda date : 11/01/2011 time : 00.32


Dear Trirat

I now see that Kujula Kadphises was the First convert of Thomas

This joint issue of Hermaeus-Kujula Kadphises remains one of the greatest unexplained mysteries of numismatics and history. To understand the legend “Kujula Kasasa Kushana Yavugasa Dhramathidasa” one has to recognize the face of the Jew in Amyntas’ coin and also remember that Yahweh corresponds to Yava of the RigVeda and that Christianity was a Judaic (Yavugasa) heresy. This Christianity, in my opinion was close to Mahayana.

Best wishes,

Ranajit Pal
comment 103
mejda date : 10/01/2011 time : 11.23

Dear Trirat,
Please tell me frankly - does not Amyntas look like a Jew? On the basis of some Chinese sources Tarn considered Amyntas to be the father of Hermaeus but most commentators disagree and place him in a later lime-slot. Amyntas' relation with Hermaeus remains uncertain and open and he may in fact turn out to be a co-religionist or a close associate. Tarn hints that Amyntas may have died early. GBI page 342.

Best wishes,

Ranajit Pal
comment 102
mejda date : 10/01/2011 time : 11.06

Dear Trirat,

Some of Amyntas’ coins depicted Tyche who was a capricious dispenser of good and ill fortune. Many Greeks believed that when no cause can be found to such events as droughts, floods, etc. then it must be due to the anger of Tyche. So the favour of Tyche was sought to avert disasters. Many scholars have held that Jesus had a premonition of doom. Do not the coins of Amyntas remind us of the Jesus of the Christian texts?

Best wishes,

Ranajit Pal
comment 101
mejda date : 10/01/2011 time : 11.05

Dear Trirat,
What can we infer from the seated syncretic deity Zeus-Mithra in both the coins? Zeus, as Tran warned, was not the Hellenic deity of the Iliad, but very often the elephant god of Kapisa. Moreover is the mudra of the seated god Vitarka mudra or the very similar Abhaya Mudra? This, in my opinion, suggests something like Christianity which was influenced by both Buddhism and Mitraism.

Best wishes,

Ranajit Pal
comment 100
mejda date : 10/01/2011 time : 11.03

Dear Trirat,

Hermaeus is a wonder for many scholars. Sir William Tarn, whom I respect greatly, suggested that the extravagant epithets used to describe him by later kings was part of propaganda but this is short-sighted. It may be mentioned that some scholars have already suggested that Hermaeus may have been one of the three Magi. I have seen many coins but not a king-head like that of Amyntas. It looks like an unadorned poor-man's head. I am not a numismatist but could these be Hermaeus issues honouring his mentor? According to Wikipedia the largest silver coin of antiquity (85 gms) is credited to Amyntas.

Best wishes,

Ranajit Pal
comment 99
mejda date : 10/01/2011 time : 10.12
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,
I shall not mind if you tell me that I have lost the sanity of my mind. I now think that the Amyntas-Hermaeus duo of Kapisa (~60 B.C.) was the Origin of the Jesus-Thomas Lore. www.ranajitpal.com. It can be seen that both Jesus (Adam=Dhamma) and Thomas (Thomma =Dhamma) could have had Dhamma type names. Dharma became Harma or Hermaius. It could be the other way also. The name Hermaeus may have been transformed into Dharmaeus by his subjects. Jesus was originally depicted by the fish symbol which was read as 'Min’ in many cultures. Thus his name can be seen to be Amen or Amyn. Heramaeus was a great Saviour and the raised hand of Zeus shows him as receiving benediction from Zeus. The symbol of the specter in his coins could later have become the cross. The syncretic symbol of Zeus-Mithra in both the coins show why they were seen as twins. They have been classed as nomadic kings and it is not impossible that they were active in Palestine area too. Both are dated to approximately 60 B.C.

Best wishes,

Ranajit Pal
comment 98
mejda date : 07/01/2011 time : 00.23

Dear Trirat,

The kingdom of Mazdai in the Acts of Thomas is clearly the kingdom of Magadha which in those days meant both Bihar and the Indus area. The king Misdeus is Mitradeva, certainly a Maurya, a descendant of Amitradates or Amitrachates (Bindusara). The names, however deformed, reveal a touch with historical reality.

Best wishes,

Ranajit Pal
comment 97
mejda date : 26/12/2010 time : 23.11

Although the famous Yama-Yami episode of the RigVeda closely parallels the Adam-Eve anecdote in the Old Testament, it has been missed by all that Adam corresponds to the Indian god Dharma and Turma of the 6th cent. B.C. Persepolis tablets. In many ancient languages the prefix 'A' was an honorific. Dharma was closely allied to Yama, the name Yami of whose wife agrees with the name of Eve.

Jewish identity has shaped the social behaviour of the Jews over the ages but this is defined by false history. Adam and Abraham were from Indo-Iran. That Buddhism and Zoroastrianism originated in Indus-Afghanistan-South-east Iran has already been indicated. The Adam-Dharma correspondence and the presence of the Amorites in India integrates Judaism with Buddhism and Zoroastrianism and vindicates Max Müller's famous idea of a Ur-religion.
comment 96
mejda date : 09/11/2010 time : 21.59

Dear Trirat,

You would be happy to know that the problems have been sorted out and I am now going to New York in December.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 95
Trirat date : 06/11/2010 time : 19.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

The more I read, the more I realize that nineteenth and early twentieth century historians and philosophers have said it all in regards to comparative religions... for example, I'm now just reading Bertrand Russel's (written during WWII) "History of Western Philosophy"; he has one intriguing sentence where he says that St. Paul quotes the Graeco-Indo King Menader (famous in Buddhism); now I'll have to go mining for that quote. But, if he's correct, it is another piece of evidence that the founders of Christianity were certainly aware of Buddhism. I'm an acolyte of Dr. Christian Lindtner, among others, who claims that the New Testament is a plagiarization of Mahayana Buddhist texts.
Regards,
Trirat
comment 94
mejda date : 06/11/2010 time : 19.12

Dear Trirat,

I may not ultimately join the workshop as the organizers are not providing even hotel accomodation, leave alone the air-fare. Moreover, some of my friends have warned that there may be a hostile reaction to my view that pre-Abrahamic Judaism originated in Indo-Iran.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 93
Trirat date : 17/10/2010 time : 17.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

Congrats on your invitation to the conference.

By the way, I'm not talking about Magdalene, but Magdala. All of a sudden, Matthew mentions a place called Magdala, which is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible. We (who hold that New Testament is plagiarized from Buddhist texts) think he just threw that in because of his knowledge of Magadha. No one knows where Magdala is.
comment 92
mejda date : 17/10/2010 time : 09.23

Dear Trirat,

You wold be happy to know that I have been invited to participate in a workshop on Conflict Resolution to be held in New York on 9-10 December this year. It is organized by the Columbia University.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 91
mejda date : 17/10/2010 time : 09.18

Dear Trirat,

I liked your comment. I did not know that 'Bang' means village in your language. Which is the oldest reference to the name Bangkok? You still may have another hidden layer.
I also liked your comment that Magdalene is "Buddhism's own Magadha" but as you yourself realize this cannot be Patna area. I have not only written that Magan was Magadha but also that the name Melukhkha of the Indus cities is also a Sanskritized version of Magadha. I take Magadha to be Mah-gud 'the great Bull' which in Sanskrit is Maha-Uksha or Melukhka. Magadha was a vast territory that also included Oman in Arabia.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 90
Trirat date : 13/10/2010 time : 08.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

You seem to be partial to trying to link up ancient places through their names. The Indian ones I cannot vouchsafe for. But when you wondered whether Bangkok could be an echo of Banga (Comment 70), the answer is no; Bangkok is composed of two Thai words: bang = village, and kok = a kind of olive. So Bangkok is the village of olives.

However, there is one place name in the Bible which no scholar, except a few Greek-Sanskrit scholars such as Dr. Christian Lindtner, has taken much notice of. In Matthew 15:39 it says: And he sent away the multitude, got into the boat, and came to the region of Magdala.

Now Dr. Lindtner is one of those who claim--and I'm an acolyte of his--that the New Testament is plagiarized mostly from Mahayana Buddhist texts. Guess where Magdala is? It's Buddhism's own Magadha. Nowhere else is Magdala mentioned in the Bible, and of course biblical scholars have been scratching their heads for hundreds of years trying to figure out where the place could be! It's in India! But, as you say, Iran that was India.
comment 89
mejda date : 05/10/2010 time : 10.37
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Going back to Fogelin's book,I have written that the Buddhists monks must have come to Thotlakonda from Deval near Karachi. Romila Thapar and many others have written about the Bhakti movement originating from the south which is superficial. Thotlakonda, which is the oldest Buddhist site in modern India, explains why the evidence comes from the south but this was only the part of the story. The name Pavurlakonda reveals the link with Deval and Sindh-Baluchistan which was the true centre. This integrates the Bhakti movement with Sufism and Buddhism.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 88
mejda date : 29/09/2010 time : 21.36
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Tomorrow would be a historic day for India as the UP high court is going to make public its decision on the so-called Rama Janmabhumi (birth-place of Rama) case which is pending for 60 years. There is a general apprehension of popular disturbance which is causing concern among the administrators as well as the general public. Already thousands of lives have been lost over the issue of the Rama Janmabhumi. My regret is that much of this is due to the tradition of false history writing in India and Iran. I have pointed out that Rama had nothing to do with Ayodhya in UP but was a King of the Indus Cities, Elam and even Iraq. There is large overlap between the history of Rama and that of Rostam who has been reduced to a petty Arsacid king in Persian history. The sons of Rama are mentioned in the Old Testament. Both the Achaemenians and the Sasanids were decendants of Rama. Even Gotama Buddha can be counted among the Sons Of Rama.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 87
mejda date : 27/09/2010 time : 22.08

Dear Trirat,

I probably have not made it clear how I startled I felt after reading the book. Think of a 3rd century B.C. Buddhist site in Andhra Pradesh which is far earlier than Nalanda. If you appeal to your common sense this could never have happened had Nepal been the centre of Buddhism. You have asked

> Buddhism arose in Gandhara, how did Buddhism spread across India so rapidly and get entrenched in Andhra Pradesh by 2nd century BCE?<

Well we are talking about a gap of four centuries which is a lot of time. Moreover Thotlakonda gives the answer. I have written that Vishakha was a Mauryan name. The Mauryans did it. The silk route branched from Gandhara straight down to Deval which was Ashoka's abode. From Deval to Vishakhapattanam by sea and then inwards. There were other channels of diffusion through the Gujrat and Maharashtra coast also. I greatly liked Fogelin's book but he should have gone a little deeper. I always knew that the Mauryas were behind the dawn of South India and here is concrete proof. I am surprised by the low level response to this good book. Did I tell you that my paper entitled "The Dawn of Religions in Afghanistan-Seistan-Gandhara and the Personal Seals of Gotama Buddha and Zoroaster" has been published in Mithras Reader III which is now on sale.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 86
Trirat date : 27/09/2010 time : 16.46
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr Pal,

I'm aware of Fogelin's book. I think the title of the book is misleading; while it is about early Buddhist archeology, but it is about archeology of Andhra Pradesh, of all places. As you mentioned in your review, where is the connection between Nepal and Andhra Predesh. However, from my perspective of trying to prove that Buddhism arose in Gandhara, how did Buddhism spread across India so rapidly and get entrenched in Andhra Pradesh by 2nd century BCE.
comment 85
mejda date : 27/09/2010 time : 08.52

Dear Trirat,

Lars Fogelin has recently written a book entitled "Archaeology of Early Buddhism" which is very informative and interesting. I have written a review of it in Google books which can be found from the link below.
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Rj-sfAJNk24C&dq=Lars+Fogelin&source=bl&ots=p9xXC-ChfO&sig=KH03jvunIWXSkBb_UH4n4YHpqVc&hl=en&ei=0COeTNWoF4nQcYmVifIJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 84
mejda date : 27/09/2010 time : 08.52

Dear Trirat,

Lars Fogelin has recently written a book entitled "Archaeology of Early Buddhism" which is very informative and interesting. I have written a review of it in Google books which can be found from the link below.
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Rj-sfAJNk24C&dq=Lars+Fogelin&source=bl&ots=p9xXC-ChfO&sig=KH03jvunIWXSkBb_UH4n4YHpqVc&hl=en&ei=0COeTNWoF4nQcYmVifIJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 83
mejda date : 30/08/2010 time : 10.51

Dear Trirat,

In the Vinaya texts (Vol. 13, part 1), there is a reference to an interesting episode in which the parents of Upali, a young student of Rajagaha, are confronted with the problem of the future career of their son. At first they want him to be a scribe for `If Upali could learn writing, he would after our death live a life of ease and without pain'. But then Upali's father and mother thought again: `If Upali learns writing his fingers will become sore. But if Upali could learn arithmetic, he would after our death live a life of ease and without pain.' If the scenario had been the Indian subcontinent, it is difficult to understand why a scribe's fingers should be bruised as the tradition of writing in India was with pen and ink which is not at all injurious to finger. On the other hand, in Sumer or other parts of West Asia, where writing usually meant scratching on clay tablets, this can be considered to be perfectly natural. Discoveries of ink pots and writing pads have been made in Mohenjodaro.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 82
mejda date : 23/08/2010 time : 23.09

Dear Trirat,

I remember how shaken you appeared when I wrote that Veysabad near Bushehr could have been Vaishali. According to the Buddhist texts there were more than 7 thousand pleasure gardens and an equal number of lotus ponds at Vaishali. In my mind this seemed to be an allusion to the Paradeisos mentioned by Xenophon and others. Arrian (Indica, 39)writes about many gardens near Mesambria and this is placed by the Barrington Atlas near Bushehr.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 81
mejda date : 20/08/2010 time : 20.07

Dear Trirat,

The idea of a Lanka in the Gulf area is not new for me. My first paper on history was "Meru, Lanka and Simhala" which was published in the Annals of Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute in 1995. In it I showed that the Egyptian documents indicate a Sangara in the Babylonia area. Sangara or Sangala was the name of Simhala. But the editor in those days was a very learned Vedic scholar, Prof. R. N. Dandekar who is no more.

Best wishes,

Dr, Ranajit Pal
comment 80
mejda date : 18/08/2010 time : 16.30

Dear Trirat,

Lanka may still be in a nearby location. Was Kish island which lies west of Bandar-e Lengeh the ancient Kishkindha? Alexander's admiral Nearchus was told by one Mithropastes that the anceint king Eruthras was buried in a nearby location. In my scheme this may be Rudra. Or if the memory was hazy it could be any great ancient king. See http://books.google.co.in/books?id=jYLuvdSxUmQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Alexander+in+the+east+Bosworth&source=bl&ots=-zHjFGa12L&sig=zC-l6r74cTyBJsyuCi7ttXffGu4&hl=en&ei=RVtjTJ7AKpPovQP568CeCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false .

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 79
mejda date : 18/08/2010 time : 13.50

Dera Trirat,

All the scholars agree that the fish symbol should be read as 'Min' which is the word for fish in Sanskrit, Bengali, Dravidian languages, and also Sumerian, yet it ahs not been noticed that its presence in the Proto-Shiva seal shows that Shiva in India initially had a name like Minuksha. I think what I have written about the U symbol wil be appreciated by scholars in future. In my view Munda is a slippery territory as there are no ancient documents in Munda. If you have a pack supporting you, whatever you write about Munda is 'Truth'.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 78
mejda date : 18/08/2010 time : 13.30

Dear Trirat,

During my recent journey to Kuwait I stopped over at Dubai. The rise of Dubai is said to be linked to the decline of Bandar-e Lengeh which is on the other side of the Gulf. You may be aware of that I have written that Lanka of Ravan was here. But here is something new. Lanka was an island and there is an island near Bandar-e Lengeh named Queshm which ahs an ancient history. I knew that Bushehr was an important Elamite maritime hub but now I realise that Queshm was also an Elamite port of great importane. Was it Lanka. The archaeologists have not found much here but who can tell about the future?

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 77
Trirat date : 13/08/2010 time : 18.58
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

I know next to nothing about Kuwait or Dubhai, but surprisingly, a little more about the Indus script. I know that it remains undeciphered despite a lot of time and effort by scholars. I think I've read your article on the subject, but of course am not any where near qualified to offer an opinion. However, since scholars still dispute whether the symbols represent words, syllables, or letters, or just plain symbols, I doubt if anyone will come up with a solution any time soon, if ever. Best wishes.

Trirat
comment 76
mejda date : 13/08/2010 time : 12.02

Dear Trirat,

You may not share my enthusiasm for the Indus_scripts and sadly almost no one has commented on what I have written on the subject. In the scholia review http://www.classics.und.ac.za/reviews/05-19pal.htm there is just mention of it as 'intriguing'. The Wikipedia article on Indus_Script is full of Harvard wisdom on the Seals but sadly reference to my work has been elbowed out. What I have written about the fish-symbol 'Min' and the Bull-symbol U probably deserve more careful consideration.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 75
mejda date : 12/08/2010 time : 00.16
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

What I have recently written about Banbhore, which is identified as Deval by many scholars, is not only very significant it has also implications on the location of Palibothra. I have already written in my book (p.27) that Pattala could have been a Mauryan capital. If you look at my website you can see that I identify Deval, which was linked to the Silk-route, as the Mauryan hub for maritime trade. If you have seen the book "The Archaeology of Seafaring in Ancient South Asia", by H. P. Ray you would realize how greatly different my position is from that of JNU scholars such as R. Thapar and H. P. Ray.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 74
mejda date : 06/08/2010 time : 21.53

Dear Trirat,

I spent four days in Kuwait for some professional work and despite the extreme heat, liked the country. I was greeted with warmth and was also impressed by the cosmopolitan nature of the population. This is not an equal society and their practice of demolishing all buildings after 20-30 years appeared horrifying to me but otherwise it is a peaceful country. Do you have any experience of Kuwait or Dubai?

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 73
Trirat date : 31/07/2010 time : 00.26
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

Wonderful, and congratulations. Warmest regards.
Trirat
comment 72
mejda date : 30/07/2010 time : 22.53

July 30, 2010
Dear Trirat,

Today I have been informed that my paper entitled ‘The Dawn of Religions in Afghanistan-Seistan-Gandhara and the Personal Seals of Gotama Buddha and Zoroaster’ has been accepted for publication in the Journal “Mithras Reader” published from London. It will be published in September as a book (paperback) and also in electronic download format. Research at times seems to be a painful exercise but thanks to well-wishers and friends such as Prof. Sukumari Bhattacahrji (who is now very seriouly ill), Thomas McEvilley and Mark Garrison I have been able to survive.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 71
mejda date : 11/06/2010 time : 08.14

Dear Trirat,

Sorry there was a typing error. Bangalore is now written as Bengaluru (uru=city) not Bengalus. The indentification of Banbhore solves another problem - Chandragupta's residence. He was a great king who must have had many Palaces in many places, but Plutarch and Appian wrote that Androcottus, king of the Indians, dwelt near the Indus. This dwelling place must be Vangala. That it was also known as Deval or Debal may be linked to their name Devadatta or Diodotus.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 70
mejda date : 11/06/2010 time : 08.03
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Do you think that the name Bangkok can be an echo of Banga ? I am not sure but it is not impossible. Bur for the last twentyfive years I have been saying that there was another early Bengal in the North-West of India. I had written about it in my book 'Non-Jonesian Indology and Alexander' (p. 203). In my website also I have elaborated on this theme but now I have more definite information. There is mention in the sources about a city named Vangala which has troubled many scholars because its location remained a mystery. I had written about five years back that the modern city of Bangalore or Bengalus is an echo of Vangala. On the other hand some writers including A. Wink author of "Al-Hind, the Making of the Indo-Islamic World" (vol. 1, p. 257) have tried to dismiss the problem by saying that Vangala is just an etymological variant of Vanga which is absurd. I am now saying that Banbhore, near Karachi, Pakistan, which is an ancient site was Vangala. This has far-reaching implications on also the history of languages.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 69
mejda date : 09/06/2010 time : 18.33

Dear Trirat,

I have at times felt that you are a reluctant fellow traveller (laughing). Now look at this book :
"South Asian folklore: an encyclopedia : Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India" by P. J. Claus, S. Diamond, M. A. Mills. it is published by Routledge . In Page 203 they write

The folk actors of Herat called themselves Magad and their private ethno-professional dialect (a patois of Persian with additional specialized vocabulary) Magadi.

Does this tell you anything? A dialect named Magadi in Afghanistan, not Bihar. This was the true hinterland of Buddhism. Dr. Hafizullah Baghban has written 4 volumes on the Magadi theatre of Afghanistan which is considered to be a pioneering work. Bizarre, isnt it.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 68
mejda date : 13/04/2010 time : 21.21
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

I am saddened by the news of the death of Dr. Katy F. Dalal who always treated me with kindness. I was not aware that she was so ill and was in fact thinking of seeing her. I first met her during the Nauroz ceremony of 1989 and it was a memorable day of my life. I had written a research article on Gotama Buddha in West Asia which was frowned upon by most scholars. Dr. Dalal, on the other hand, read it carefully and approved of it. I have thanked her in the Acknowledgement section of my book entitled “Non-Jonesian Indology and Alexander”. I always remember her kindness and am grateful to her. She was like an angel to me.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 67
mejda date : 14/03/2010 time : 09.41

Dear Trirat,

I am distraught that the Antiquity Project http://sites.google.com/site/antiquityproject/ is now defunct. In y opinion it was an admirable review but I have no idea about the people who had organized it or why it could not continue.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 66
mejda date : 01/03/2010 time : 20.24

Dear Trirat,

I am sorry, it is not the Gospel of Thomas, but the Acts of Thomas.

Best wishes,

Dr. Rabajit Pal
comment 65
mejda date : 01/03/2010 time : 20.19

Dear Trirat,

Yes, he is one of the scholars who deny the holocaust of the Jews but I think he goes a bit too far. When we were students at IIT Kharagpur in the early 1970s there was an adage ‘if you do not understand a subject, go write a book on it”. This can be interpreted in two ways; one is that all books are written by people who do not understand their subject matter, but there is yet another way of looking at it – if you start writing a book you have to study hard and in the process you learn the subject. Regarding Jesus I have written something in my website but must admit that I do not know enough, but my gut feeling is that Jesus was a person of flesh and blood not a mythical figure. To be fair to Dr. Lindtner I must admit that I was greatly impressed by his idea that some episodes of the Gospel of Thomas echoes the Sanskrit Drama Mrichchakatika. I admire his courage.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 64
Trirat date : 15/02/2010 time : 14.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

Do you know of Dr. Christian Lindtner? He is a Danish Sanskrit and Greek scholar. He has written a book that claims that the New Testament in its original Greek is in many instances plagiarized from Sanskrit Mahayana Buddhist texts. He makes an interesting case. His website is http://www.jesusisbuddha.com/seminar.html

Any thoughts on this?

Regards
comment 63
mejda date : 14/02/2010 time : 22.05

Dear Trirat,

Much has been written about the Amorite homeland and they are generally said to be Westerners although Dhorme and others have placed them in Arabia. I am now saying that the Amorites were an important constituent of the population of the Indus-Sarswati culture. More importantly, in my website there is now a picture of King Lamghi Mari who calls himself an Issakkv in his inscription. This in my view corresponds to the famous Ikshvaku line of Kings to which Rama belonged.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 62
mejda date : 08/11/2009 time : 15.18

Dear Trirat,

I need to complete my argument stating that name Neapolis is found in Mesoppotamia during the Seleucid period and may be an echo of a city-name in Iran-Baluchistan.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 61
mejda date : 08/11/2009 time : 15.10

Dear Trirat,

Although the topic has been discussed in my book and website ad nauseam, I shall give yet another example. In his `Account of the Period of King Asoka' Taranatha narrates, "Meanwhile the people of Nepal and Khasya revolted. Asoka was sent with the army to subdue them. Without difficulty Asoka subdued the hilly races, imposed levy and annual tax on them, realised ransom from them and offered them to the king." Curiously, however, the Asokavadana omits the reference to Nepal and states that Asoka, during his youth, subdued the countries of Khasas and Takshasila. Does this tell us about an early Nepal in the North-west?

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 60
mejda date : 03/11/2009 time : 10.09

Dear Trirat,

I forgot to mention The Cambridge History of Ancient India ed. Rapson and Basham's 'The Wonder that Was India" although I violently disagree with Basham's views on Rama. But Basham suspected nothing about Jones' work and in the case of Rama only echoed Jacobi's view.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 59
mejda date : 02/11/2009 time : 15.19

Dear Trirat,

You wrote,

>… when this area was overrun by non-Indian peoples the cities were either renamed …<

Yes, but I would hesitate to use the term non-Indian. Al-beruni wrote about Zoroaster driving out the Buddhists, but in my scheme this does not turn Zoroaster into a non-Indian. I quote below from a well known article of G. Fussman entitled “Southern Bactria & Northern India before Islam”.

“Despite a huge and ever-increasing bibliography, the history of northern India from the death of Asoka to the first inroads of the Moslem armies is still imperfectly known. About its social history we can only state that new peoples kept coming from Iran and Central Asia and were, in the course of time, integrated into an Indian social organization about which we have very little incontrovertible data.”

>The second step seems a little problematic.<

I don’t quite see the problem. There was a movement of people.

In my view when the earliest texts were written only the northern cities were prominent so there was no question of forgetting. Kapilavastu was only Babil or Kabil (avastu) in Seistan but slowly, probably long after the Gupta age, Afghanistan became a distant country and Gaya and other cities were mistakenly accepted as the true ancient cities. If you are interested you should go through the Tantra text Satpanchasadeshabibhaga. D. C. Sircar discusses this work in his book on geography. The Puranas and the Mahabharata are also useful for researches on geography. I started with the Cambridge Ancient History and also the Cambridge History of Iran which are useful books. You can distrust Toynbee’s theory of history but he is a great author. The books of Olmstead and Frye on Persian history are also must reads. Then comes H.C. Raychaudhuri – a lot of data but not very careful analysis. Nilakanta Sastri does not suspect Jones or Fuhrer but is still much better.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 58
Trirat date : 01/11/2009 time : 22.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

The impression I get is that the original ancient cities/states we're talking about (Pataliputra, Vaishali, Magadha, etc.) were in Iran. When this area was overrun by non-Indian peoples the cities were either renamed in the new language or new cities built that superceded them.

The second step seems a little problematic. Why would Indians name cities/states in Central and Eastern India with these ancient Indian names from Iran? If we take historical cases, Europeans named towns in America after their home towns in Europe; in Southeast Asia we have cities and even Cambodia named after Indian cities/states. In the former case this was due to movements of people, in the latter transfer of ideas.

Is it tenable to hold that the same sort of thing happened in the case of India because of Buddhism? Or, alternatively, perhaps no one really knew where Buddha was born, gained enlightenment, preached, and died, but later legend assigned these events to specific Indian towns in the Middle Ganges valley. In which case there's no need to search for corresponding towns in Iran.

Regards
Trirat
comment 57
mejda date : 01/11/2009 time : 20.19

Dear Trirat,

I think I have to clarify further that I have not said that Patna was never Pataliputra. The same applies to the state-name Magadha. I have said that the first mention of Magadha in an epigraph is in Asoka’s Edict in the Rajasthan area and therefore there is no justification for associating the name Magadha with modern Bihar before this era. King-names like the Sisunaga and the Kakavarnas belong to Magan in the Fars area. In later years, however, the Bihar area did become Magadha. The same may be true of Vaishali. The Asokan pillar at modern Vaishali in Bihar may or may not have been originally erected there, yet this may indeed have been Vaishali during the Asokan era. I would only deny Gotama’s association with this city. Another interesting fact is that the ruins of modern Veysabad are said to be Ghost cities and are not assigned to the Sasnians or Parthians.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 56
mejda date : 30/10/2009 time : 10.06

Dear Trirat,

In my website http://www.ranajitpal.com I have given another reason for focussing attention on the Fars-Bushehr region which again is based not only sound similarities but also art. In many manuscripts of the Mudrarakshasa Chandrgupta is not mentioned but his place is taken by Rantivarma. I have said that Rantivarma is another name of Chandragupta. He cannot be a Bihari but is clearly Orontobates who is mentioned in Alexander's history. Arrian places him in the gulf region. This is a very important clue. Now images of Asoka with his name inscribed have been found from Kanganhalli in Karnataka which has sound similarities with Bandar-e Kangan in the Gulf. There are two Bandar-e Kangans and one is very near Veysabad which I identify with Vaishali. Apart from that about fifteen years back I had written a paper 'Meru Lanka and Simhala' which was published in the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Institute in which I suggested that Babylon and the adjacent areas are referred to as Sangala in the Egyptian records. This was ancient Simhala and Lanka of the Buddhist sources is also in the same region. I have said that Nagadwipa of the Buddhist sources has nothing to do with Nagaland but is the Jiroft area. You can yourself see the similarities between the art of Kanganhalli and Jiroft. If you are interested in books read books on Elamite history becuse I think they were half-Indians. D. T. Potts has written detaile studies on this subject but his perspective does not seem to me to be broad enough. If you do not include Rama into the picture you miss out much that is significant.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 55
mejda date : 29/10/2009 time : 22.41
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Yes, and no. Sound similarity is of course an important tool which people like William Jones and Cunningham relied upon while they made their so-called discoveries. But in my opinion Cunningham never understood what archaeology is all about. N. Lahiri has written about the profit motive behind his work (‘Archaeology and identity in colonial India’, Antiquity, 74(2000): 687-92), but I disagree and genuinely admire his zeal in unearthing India’s Buddhist past. He knew India as very few others did. Sir Mortimer Wheeler recounted how he often had to travel by bullock carts and even on foot. But as Amalananda Ghosh writes, he had almost no circumspection. Gaya is undoubtedly a great historical site that has many inscriptions that show that it was indeed Gaya during a certain period, but is this sufficient proof for concluding that this was ancient Gaya mentioned in the texts? I think not. The archaeologist Debala Mitra writes that there is nothing here that goes beyond the 2nd century B.C. It is in this sense I class Cunningham as a failed missionary. Places like Vaishali in Bihar have nothing that can be traced to 6th century B.C. When I say Veysabad can be Vaishali I do not only rely on the sound similarity but also the chronology and archaeological context. Of course I can go wrong as names often get scattered over time. Bushehr which was the ancient Liyan can also turn out to be Vaishali. Can you ignore the sound similarities between Konarak in Iran and Konarak in India considering the fact that Iran is archaeologically much older than eastern India? There are four Konaraks in Iran and one is very near Veysabad. The name Bihara could be an accidental sound similarity but the Buddhist heritage of nearby Chehelkhaneh tells me that it is not so. Only today I came to know about Prof. Higuchi’s statement that Fars Buddha images may be older than Gandhara but this is exactly what my own research also tells me.
I shall request you to read Hallock’s book on the Persepolis tablets which is available free from the net. Nowadays, thanks to the internet, it is relatively easy to search for place-names in different countries. Can the name Tissa in the Persepolis tablets be a mere sound similarity? This name is unique to Buddhism and its presence has immense consequences. Romila Thapar relies on sound similarity (actually the absence of it) when she says that Asoka is not referred to by the Greco-Roman authors. It is indeed true that they do not refer to Asoka yet her statement is totally false because Asoka had other names. Mary Boyce also looks for the name Zoroaster in the Persepolis tablets and when she finds none, she promptly declares that Zoroaster is absent in the tablets. This is not a sound approach.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 54
Trirat date : 29/10/2009 time : 14.36
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dr. Pal,

Thanks for the links, especially to "Antiquities", and kudos for slowly gaining acknowledgement, at least. As you can imagine, it takes me quite a while to digest it all. In matters regarding Iran-that-was-ancient-India, where you seem to locate much of Buddhism, I have not been able to find any books (except yours) on the subject; you seem to base much of your conclusions on the sound similarities of Iranian and Indian names, if I'm not mistaken. Is this justifiable?
Regards
Trirat
comment 53
mejda date : 29/10/2009 time : 10.57
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Here is another link which is very interesting:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20020514a6.html

Prof. Higuchi is a very well known scholar who cnducted research on the history of Bamiyan.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 52
mejda date : 28/10/2009 time : 14.24

Dear Trirat,

I had been searching for Vaishali for the last twenty years and now I think I have found it at Veysabad near Bushehr. Before his death Gotama preached his last sermon at Vaishali. I am now identifying the Buzpar mausoleum near Veysabad with Gaumata/Gotama. I am also happy that the important website Antiquity Reviews (http://sites.google.com/site/antiquityproject/) recognizes my work.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 51
mejda date : 03/10/2009 time : 15.31

Dear Trirat,

I have connected Asvaghosa with Herat and in my view this was a great Buddhist centre perhaps older than Vidisha. That the Islamic thoelogians are mostly from this area appears only natural.

Regards,

Ranajit Pal
comment 50
mejda date : 03/10/2009 time : 15.21

Dear Trirat,

I find it very difficult to agree with Bechert and Gombrich who try to postpone the date of Buddha by a century because of the Gotama-Gomata equation which destroys their position. Also they are blissfully unaware of the blunder of Jones and frauds of Fuhrer.
Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 49
mejda date : 03/10/2009 time : 15.12
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,
You wrote,

Dear Dr. Pal,

I have researching on Buddha and have begun to construct a website: http://thaimangoes.blogspot.com/ where I acknowledge your contributions to my thinking. However, there are some questions which I'd be grateful for your input:

1) If we are to relocate the birthplace of Buddhism to western ancient India (Seistan or Gandhara or whatever), how are we to explain the fact that the Buddhist cannons make reference to major towns and cities associated with the Buddha which seem to lie in with the actual towns located in North India? Never mind the Chinese pilgrims, the canons were written centuries before them. The only answer I can come up with is that the Buddhist canons were written down centuries after the Buddha died and the details of his birth, wanderings, enlightenment, first sermon, death, etc. were given specific locations in an attempt to portray Buddha as a historical person. Perhaps this was done at Asoka's bidding; Constantine did much the same with Jesus much later. My tentative conclusion is that Buddha was a made-up, or composite, character, and his story was much embellished when it came to be written down Just as much of the Buddhist canon is supposed to have been spoken by Buddha, which seems highly unlikely, so whoever compiled the canons also compiled a history of Buddha embedded in the canons. It was almost as if they made up the story of his life as they went along.

2) You claim Patali is Pataliputra; wouldn't Pattali (Hyderabad) at the the mouth of the Indus delta be more suitable?

Regards
Trirat

Congratulations! I had become aware of your new venture and was in fact thinking of writing to you.
You have given the answers yourself but I would add that Vidisha (Sanchi) must have been a Buddhist centre of great importance but this was after the 3rd century B.C. About the other names such as Sravasti etc. I am more skeptical as these names are found elsewhere in Afghanistan (Vasht). Had the Buddhist canon been formulated at Gaya and Varanasi or Nalanda we would have had manuscripts from these places. But all the documents come from Bamiyan are (> 10,000). This cannot be accidental. You may be right about Patala near Hydrabad in Pakistan but remeber that Diodorus and also Arrian place Orontobates whom I equate with Chandragupta to the Gulf area. I think the echo of Bandar e Kangan in Kanganhalli is very important and this alos takes Asoka to Patali in Karman.
Please stay in touch.
Regards,
Ranajit Pal
comment 48
Trirat date : 03/10/2009 time : 13.51
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

I have been doing a lot of reading on Buddha and have begun to construct a website: http://thaimangoes.blogspot.com/ where I acknowledge your contributions to my thinking. However, there are some questions which I'd be grateful for your input:

1) If we are to relocate the birthplace of Buddhism to western ancient India (Seistan or Gandhara or whatever), how are we to explain the fact that the Buddhist cannons make reference to major towns and cities associated with the Buddha which seem to tie in with the actual towns located in North India? Never mind the Chinese pilgrims, the canons were written centuries before them. The only answer I can come up with is that the Buddhist canons were written down centuries after the Buddha died and the details of his birth, wanderings, enlightenment, first sermon, death, etc. were given specific locations in an attempt to portray Buddha as a historical person. Perhaps this was done at Asoka's bidding; Constantine did much the same with Jesus much later. My tentative conclusion is that Buddha was a made-up, or composite, character, and his story was much embellished when it came to be written down Just as much of the Buddhist canon is supposed to have been spoken by Buddha, which seems highly unlikely, so whoever compiled the canons also compiled a history of Buddha embedded in the canons. It was almost as if they made up the story of his life as they went along.
2) You claim Patali is Pataliputra; wouldn't Pattali (Hyderabad) at the the mouth of the Indus delta be more suitable?

Regards
Trirat
comment 47
mejda date : 19/11/2008 time : 00.36
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

I am now loudly claiming in my website www.ranajitpal.com to have found not only Gotama and his father Suddhodana but also Zoroaster in the Persepolis tablets. At times I do get the feeling of crying in the wilderness. Being the writer I think I can be forgiven for considering this to be ground-breaking, but there should be someone who would perform the duty of restraining me. I wish I could turn to Prof. N. G. L. Hammond who, alas, is no more. Please read what I have written and comment.

Regards,
Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 46
Trirat date : 28/10/2008 time : 05.30
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

Thanks for sending me the links and so forth, I appreciate it and will investigate them all.

Regards
comment 45
mejda date : 27/10/2008 time : 16.01
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Here are some more links

http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/search/label/Babylon
http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/search/label/non-jonesian%20history
http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/search/label/dr.%20anton%20fuhrer

Regarding the post entitled 'Lumini on Trial' the author Mr. T. A. Phelps, who is a very good friend, has some reservations. I quote from his letter:

Dear Ranajit

Having recently discovered the website of ‘Wisdom Quarterly : An American Buddhist Journal’, I was astonished to find that the opening passages of my own ‘Lumbini On Trial’ website are being used as a link to your own (utilising the links of ‘more’, and the associated heading, ‘Lumbini On Trial’, which is also shown’ on this website) and that there are, indeed, no indications where these passages actually came from here. The result – which borders on plagiarism - is quite contrary to my wishes (let alone done without my permission) since whilst we have respectfully agreed to disagree on these weighty matters this strongly suggests otherwise, and misrepresents, by association, my own views on these subjects. Please correct this situation accordingly.

Terry Phelps
I hope this would corrected in future.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 44
mejda date : 25/10/2008 time : 21.19
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Here are some links that might interest you.


http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/2008/10/non-jonesian-indology-and-alexander.html
http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/search/label/non%20jonesian%20history
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eurasian_research/message/11253

The first one also gives a link to your site.
Witzel who is a Harvard professor should form a committee for filering out 'unwanted' material from the Wiki articles. The Italian Fransesco and the Indian Rajesh Kochhar would gladly Join him. And in future the Bryn Mawr reviews sholud not be published without the consent of Benjamin Fleming.

With best regards,
Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 43
mejda date : 21/10/2008 time : 12.21
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

You must be familiar with the name Sanghamitraa of Asoka's daughter but the name Sanghamitra has a very deep layered meaning - a Mitraic Sangha. In Buddhist literature there is a clear indication that the religion of Sanghamitra (not Asoka's daughter) was different. This is a fascinating topic of study.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 42
mejda date : 31/08/2008 time : 11.11

Dear Trirat,

Very few scholars would contest the authenticity of the legend that Bhallika and Trapussa, two merchant brothers from Bactria visited the Buddha immediately after his enlightenment and became his disciples. They then returned to Balkh to build temples dedicated to him. Curiously that this does not fit in with a Kapilavastu in Nepal or eastern UP occurred to none.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 41
mejda date : 13/07/2008 time : 21.48
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

I am not sure of the existence in Thailand of the cult of Hanuman, the famous associate of Rama. That he was known as a monkey-chief should not distract us because there are many indications in the Ramayana itself that he was human. It is very likely that he was associated with a tribe with a monkey totem. The word for monkey is Bandar. I have identified Hanuman with Iliman, an associate of the Elamite king Ram-Sin who ruled Sumer and probably also Elam and India. Iliman’s name can also be read as Anuman as the symbol for ‘An’ and ‘Ili’ was the same.

Hanuman is also widely known by the name Bajarangbali which I think is very significant. The Bazrangis were a well-known family of Fars. They were the traditional priests of the Anahita temple at Istakhr in Fars. According to Tabari, Ram-Behist the wife of Sasan, the earliest ancestor of the Sasanids was a Bazrangi. The Bazrangis were a maritime people who controlled the costal areas of southeast Iran which was once ‘India’. There is a hint of this in the name Maruti of Hanuman which is associated with mobility. The way in which he brought a mountain of medicinal herb from a far-away place to cure Lakshmana who was critically wounded, can be readily explained by his maritime links.

Should I surprise you by making the suggestion that the word ‘Bandar’ for port may be a memory of the Monkey-people or Bandars ( Monkey-people). The seventeeth century historian Taranatha refers to a Persian king named Bandero. The Bazrangis were the colonizers of Oamn and East Africa and their influence reached as far as the Philippines.

In my opinion they played a major role in the Indianisation or Sanskritisation of South-East Asia.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 40
mejda date : 01/07/2008 time : 22.00
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,
You wrote,
>As far as Buddhism arising in the west, there seems to be so much circumstantial evidence for this, but which seems to be totally ignored by the mainstream Indologists. I was reading the introduction to the Kamasutra translated by Wendy Doniger. She says that from the context the book seems to have been written in Northwest India but the only city mentioned is Paliputra which she identifies with Patna. If Paliputra were placed in the west, this would make sense.<

Yes, indeed it would ! Prof. Doniger is such a learned authority on the Puranas but, alas, has no sense of archaeology at all. She has edited a book on the Laws of Manu which is characterised by a total lack of historical sense. She makes some absurd translation of some terms because of her ignorane of the link of West Asia with Hinduism and Buddhism. Sadly there is little critical appraisal of such writing.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 39
mejda date : 07/06/2008 time : 11.34

Dear Trirat,
The great Buddhist scholar Prof. B.M. Barua and many others have held that Chandragupta Maurya belonged to the north-west. It has also been suggested that he belonged to the Assakenoi or Ashvaka clan. Even a staunch supporter of Jones, Romila Thapar of JNU, considers the Ashvakas as clans of the Kambojas. In an important paper in the Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal, (vol. 17 (1979), p.112-133.) Dr. B.S. Dehiya made the startling assertion that the Mauryas are from eastern Iran. I have maintained(http://www.ranajitpal.com) that Djiroft, where the most sensational archaeological discoveries of the last decade have been made was actually Dvaravati, the famed capital of Kamboja. Yaska wrote that the language of the Kambojas was linked to Persian. Kamboja became the pamir area later. Patali which in my view was clearly Palibothra was very near Djiroft which shows the link of Chandragupta with eastern Iran.

Influential scholars like Dr N. G. Majumdar, the first editor of the Irda Copper plate inscription and Chandra Chakrabarty have held that the Pala kings were related to the Kambojas. This shows the link of the Palas with eastern Iran which was India. I.M. Diakonoff was keenly aware of the Indian element in Persian history and geography. I have benefitted greatly from his essay on the Medians in the Cambridge History of Iran (vol. II) where he shows the states of Karalla, Andar Pattianu etc. in Eastern Iran.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 38
mejda date : 07/06/2008 time : 10.41

Dear Trirat,

The Iranian archaeologists and historians are not genuinely interested in their pre-Islamic heritage and their German advisors are not aware that eastern Iran was under Chandragupta in the 4th century BC and Dharmapala a thousand years later.

The name of an elusive king of Bengal, Shashanka, roughly dated between 600-625 AD, has a distinct Sasanian ring. Two of his inscriptions dated to the 8th and 10th year of his reign have been found from Midnapore which had sea-links with Ceylon, Gujerat and eastern Iran. Another undated inscription has been found from nearby Egra. His gold and silver coins have also been found but his Palace remains undiscovered. That he was strongly anti-Buddhist fits in with his Sasanian background, and it is just possible that together with a large chunk of India including Bengal, he was also a king of eastern Iran.
Regards,
Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 37
mejda date : 06/06/2008 time : 10.35

Dear All,

I have referred to Devapala in relation to the appointment of the Principal of Nalanda in Bihar. I have spent some time reflecting on the history of his grandfather Gopala. There is a plaque near the great lake at Bhopal which says that the name Bhopal is a transform of Gopala who was probably the ruler of the area. I think this is true but there is much more to Gopala and it is difficult to fit him in real space-time. He was linked to Gaur and I have already pointed to another Gour in Eastern Iran(Firuzabad) which was once India. Was ancient Banga a kind of Vanga-desha with two limbs - one in modern Bengal and another in the Baluchistan area just like Pakistan before the birth of Bangladesh? Why has the origin of the Palas been ascribed to the Sea (Samudrakula) ? Dharmapala ruled the whole of Central and North India and also
Baluchistan and Afghanistan. Did he rule Eastern Iran also? Gour was in Fars but who were the rulers of Fars in the eighth century AD? In
my view the answer is Gopala and Dharmapala. The Wiki article on Dharmapala says that he had held a court in Kanauj after this victory which was attended by rulers from Bhoja, Matsya, Madra, Kuru, Yadu and Avanti. Where was this Kanauj? I have already pointed to Kohnouj near Patali which is near Djiroft. Djiroft is a contraction of Dvaravati, the capital of Kamboja. The nearby city of Darab also echoes Dvaravati.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 36
mejda date : 04/06/2008 time : 22.09

Dear Trirat,

I have to add that according to the Buddhist sources, the excellent Buddhist text Abhidharma was compiled at Khorta which was the name of Herat (Khortacana). Can you imagine that the Afghans who are now represented by the rabid Taliban were once among the most learned in the world !
Best wishes,

Dr. Pal
comment 35
mejda date : 04/06/2008 time : 21.53

Dear Trirat,

I am afraid there is an arror. The Afghan scholar Viradeva was invited by King Devapala (810-851 AD) of Bengal-Bihar to take the chair of the Principal of the famous Nalanda University. He was not the first Principal.

Best wishes,

Dr. Pal
comment 34
mejda date : 04/06/2008 time : 21.44
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

You wrote,

>The medieval Buddhist university at Nalanda is very near to Patna; doesn't this indicate that Indian Buddhists prior to the Islamic incursions considered this to be the heartland of Buddhism, and that they believed the present city of Patna was Pataliputra, or Palibothra?<

There good reason to believe that they did, (omit only the Palibothra part) but does that serve our purpose? You have partly answered your own question by using the term medieval. Dr. Martin Carver, Dilip Chakrabarty and F.R. Allchin of Cambridge would tell you that there is no problem with Gotama himself visiting a place that dates from the medieval period and you may believe them. A more conscientious scholar, Dr. Debala Mitra, clearly states that Nalanda in Bihar does not go beyond the 1st cent B.C. I have not been able to locate the early Nalanda but surely Nalanda which the Buddha himself visited could only have been in the North-West like the great monastery at Takht-i-Bahi. Other Buddhist monasteries have been found in the Merv desert, near Chist and also recently near Gwadur. The name Nalanda may be Nahr-Anda (Nahr=river). There were many cities with Anda names in the Afghanistan area. Are you aware that the first Acharya at Nalanda came from Afghanistan? Does that tell you anything?

Best wishes,
Dr. Pal
comment 33
Trirat date : 04/06/2008 time : 09.26
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,

I have one more question on Palibothra: The medieval Buddhist university at Nalanda is very near to Patna; doesn't this indicate that Indian Buddhists prior to the Islamic incursions considered this to be the heartland of Buddhism, and that they believed the present city of Patna was Pataliputra, or Palibothra?

For example, a book I'm reading states: The Great Monastery of Nalanda...a couple of days' walk south of Pataliputra, was the supreme monument to Buddhist learning. Asoka founded the core monastery on the site of the favorite haunt of the Buddha in the third century BC...

Best wishes,

Trirat
comment 32
mejda date : 22/05/2008 time : 22.18
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Your raise very pertinent points.

>While Buddhism died out in India, but the people of Burma, Thailand and Sri Lanka always thought their religion originated in India, and not Persia, say. How was the memory of India-in-Iran erased so quickly and completely from the public consciousness?<

You should treat the label ‘India’ with care. Don’t be hoodwinked into the common misconception that ancient India was British India. Before 1947 Baluchistan was within India, now it is in Pakistan. It is more than likely that 2500 years ago Western Baluchistan and probably Karmania was within India. Remember that Alexander celebrated his ‘victory over the Indians’ in Kerman. This was suspected by Sir Aurel Stein and Sir Charles Eliot. Even Vincent Smith wrote that Karmania was within greater India. If you send me your address by e-mail I can post a copy of my book which discusses this in some detail. I have written that Magan was the ancient Magadha.

>Also, if Patali is Palibothra, what are we to make of Megesthenes' statement that it was situated at the confluence of the Ganges and the Arenovoas rivers?<

Tradition has it that Bhagiratha brought the Ganges to earth from heaven. This leads one to suspect that it was previously a river in a mountainous country. As the Indians migrated to modern India they brought the name of Ganges from their old homeland. The name Bandar-e Kang has the root Kang which may be the old gang. In some ancient maps the name is given as Gongana. I have already indicated this in my website article on Asoka/Diodotus. If you erase from your mind what Jones said, Arennovoas or Erannaboas should remind you of Iran. The archaeology of modern Benares does not go beyond 550 B.C. whereas the name occurs in the earliest layers of the Indian tradition. I think the name Kashi is more important and Assyrian references to Kar-Kashi or the city-of Kashi clearly show that it was in Iran-Baluchistan. I have not been able to locate this city.

Best wishes,

Dr. Pal
comment 31
Trirat date : 22/05/2008 time : 19.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal,
Thanks for keeping me informed and sorry for not having responded earlier; I was away for five weeks. You have certainly sparked my interest in the anomalies concerning the history of Buddhism and the Buddha.
Currently I believe that he (if such a perons ever existed) was a member of the Saka (related to the Scythian) tribe of Central Asia, which as you know moved into the India-in-Iran region several centuries BCE. But there are a few points I cannot resolve and wonder if you could help me. Even if William Jones was wrong in claiming that Patna was Palibothra; even if we say that people like Zuan Tsang and Cunningham were wrong about the location of the heartland of Buddhism; why do the jatakas and other ancient Buddhist cannons preserve the memory that the Buddha's life was centered in the Ganges valley? Many stories in the jatakas begin something like: Now there lived in the city of Benares...etc.
While Buddhism died out in India, but the people of Burma, Thailand and Sri Lanka always thought their religion originated in India, and not Persia, say. How was the memory of India-in-Iran erased so quickly and completely from the public consciousness?
Also, if Patali is Palibothra, what are we to make of Megesthenes' statement that it was situated at the confluence of the Ganges and the Arenovoas rivers?
Sorry for rambling a bit, but would be grateful for your response.

Regards, Trirat
comment 30
mejda date : 22/05/2008 time : 09.26
http://www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

I am now claiming to have found the location of Palibothra. This is Patali( 28°19'58" La., 57°52'16" Lo) in Eastern Iran which was once India. You can actually see the place from http://www.maplandia.com/iran/kerman/patali/ . Now it is for the archaeologists to locate the palace. Of course the Palace can be in the nearby Konar Sandal area where fantastic discoveries have been recently made.

Best wishes,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 29
mejda date : 13/04/2008 time : 11.16
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

Dr. Trudy Kawami of the Arthur M. Sackler Foundation writes candidly that my writings on Alexander the Great gave her a severe case of giggles. I also laugh so that I may not weep but I fear that my statements about Eastern Judaism, in particular my idea that Yudhisthira of the Great Indian Epic Mahabharata may be Terah (Yadus-Tera), the father of Abraham (www.ranajitpal.com) may elicit hilarious laughter from Judaic scholars. I fondly hope that it may not be bad, after all, if my writing inspires joy and is not of the dry and desiccated type.

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 28
Thanong date : 29/01/2008 time : 23.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong

Well, I am only interested in the aesthetic side of Buddhism.
comment 27
Trirat date : 25/01/2008 time : 14.06
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Khun Thanong, thanks. I'm glad we share the same spirit. I should warn you, though, I'm mainly interested in the historicity of Buddhism.

comment 26
Thanong date : 24/01/2008 time : 22.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong

I really admire your writing and your approach to Buddhism. I think we share the same spirit.
comment 25
Trirat date : 04/01/2008 time : 18.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dr. Pal,

The Bryn Mawr Classical Review was interesting and supportive of your theory. I hope the trend continues.
comment 24
mejda date : 27/12/2007 time : 17.50

Dear Trirat,

Thanks. You can understand my feelings from the fact that I am strongly disliked for saying that Gotama was not from modern India. After my book entitled "Non-Jonesian Indology and Alexander" was published, major Indian newspapers like The Times of India, The Hindu and the Telegraph all refused to review it, finding it unpalatable. Even such a respected Journal like the Annals of Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute has not reviewed it. Pratapaditya Pal, the renowned Art critic lamented that I was giving away our national wealth. I was trained as a scientist and have a different perception about truth. The Greeks wrote "Pathei Mathos" - knowledge hurts - but still pursued it to the end. We in India have no tradition of historical writing of such value. We have only stories written for the pleasure of kings. The good news is that the book has been reviewed in the Journal Scholia and now the Bryn Mawr Classical Review has also come forward with a review. http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2007/2007-12-39.html
Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 23
Trirat date : 27/12/2007 time : 15.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dr. Pal,

Activity on this blog has come to a screeching halt not because of anything you've said, but because after a couple of weeks it gets buried under a pile of other blogs. Also, you'll notice that the comments have been by only a few people; it's not a subject people know or care much about.I'm sure everyone would appreciate any blog on any subject you might like to post on the Nation Weblog. We welcome your contribute.

comment 22
mejda date : 20/12/2007 time : 23.12

Dear Trirat,

I want to draw your attention to an important point regarding the history of Buddhism which has been recently debated in the Indology forum www.groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY. One Dr. Volker Thewalt wrote with alacrity that there cannot be any link between the Indus civilization and Buddhism as Gotama belonged to the 6th-5th century BC. I was shocked to find that this was endorsed by a senior Harvard University linguist. Do you also think that Zoroastrianism is much older than Buddhism? I had read a book written by the very learned scholar T. H. Rhys-Davids where he described the long line of pre-Gotama Buddhas. Are you familiar with the Isigili Sutta of Majjhima Nikaya which I think is a very important document that is probably not taught at Harvard. You can probably appreciate why I have so little respect for cloistered virtue.

I am sorry to note that after I started writing in your blog all activity seems to come to a screeching halt. I cannot escape the feeling that I am somewhat unwelcome.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal
comment 21
mejda date : 05/10/2007 time : 20.13
www.ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,

I forgot to answer your point about Magadha. It is wrong to associate early Magadha with modern Bihar. If you go to my website you will find that I identify early Magadha with Magan. Are you aware that Mogadham is a very common Iranian name? Mogadham was a Prime Minister of Iran. This is because early magadha was in this area.
comment 20
mejda date : 05/10/2007 time : 20.07

Dear Trirat,

I believe every great Epic has a historical kernel. You wrote about J. S. Strong’s view that Buddhism is not to be approached from a scientific or rational point of view; since the mythology and the miraculous is an integral part of the story. Yes the mythical and the miraculous are always there in all great religious literature but if you stamp out Jones and Fuhrer it is still possible to study Buddhism from a scientific or rational point of view and extract get the truth behind. This is true in the case of Rama too. I think Rama is of special importance for Thai kings and I wish to point out that the name Arya Ramana of the great grandfather of Darius-I is an echo of the historical Rama whose name was once sacred in Iran. The Avesta refers to Rama and Vayu (Hanuman is said to be the son of the wind-god Vayu) with great veneration. The name of the first Sassanian king was also Ram Behest. About forty percent of the city-names in Sassanian Iran had the prefix Rama. I believe one should not belittle such a great personality only because the scholars of the British school ask us to do so.

Dr. Pal
comment 19
Trirat date : 05/10/2007 time : 09.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Dear Dr. Pal, I've not studied the Ramayana to comment. I had always thought it was a mythological epic devoid of history; but now I'm beginning to see that it could have been based on oral history of actual events. I'm now convinced that much of early Indian history began in the Northwest. BTW, the Dasaratha-jataka (No. 461) has correspondences with the Ramayana.

Back to the subject of the Buddha; I'm still trying to understand how, if he was born in Seistan, the Buddhist canons and commentaries have placed his biography in Magadah.
comment 18
mejda date : 03/10/2007 time : 22.38
www,ranajitpal.com

Dear Trirat,
I hope I am not crying in the wilderness. Here is what I had written. I am inserting it here for record-keeping.

"The claim that Rama is unhistorical may, in fact, be due to a false British perspective which leads one to search for Rama in Eastern India or Southern India where urban civilization started not much earlier than the Mauryan era. If, however, one turns to the north or the north-west where the early Empires rose, clear evidence for Rama and his associates can be found. The great linguist Prof. Sukumar Sen noted that Rama was called Rama Margaveya in some ancient texts. From this he concluded that Rama was from Margu or Margiana. In the Cambridge History of Iran, (vol. II) the eminent orientalist I. M. Diakonoff writes that ancient Medians in the early 1st millennium BC often took the name Rama in preference to other Iranian names like Ahura Mazda etc. Prof. T.C. Young Jr., an expert on Iran who has written both in the Cambridge Ancient History and the Encyclopedia Britannica, writes that it is quite reasonable to look for early Hindu and Sanskrit connection outside of the sub-continent. As the early speakers of Sanskrit were not native to India, it is logical to consider early connections with Western Asia.(personal commuication to Dr. Ranajit Pal). As has been pointed out by Ranajit Pal and later also by M.V.K. Rao, clear references to Rama Chandra or Ram-Sin(Sin was the moon-god), Bharata (Warad-Sin) and Laxmana(Lakhamar) are found in the highly authentic Sumerian king-list which places them in the early second millennium BC. Bharata ruled for 12 years which agrees with the data given in the Dasaratha Jataka. Rim Sin (the cuneiform symbol for 'Rim' was also read as 'Ram') or Ram-Sin ruled for 60 years which compares with the 60 thousand years of the Jataka. Dr. Pal points out that the Ram-Chapel of Ur may have been the earliest memorial to Rama (Joan Oates,'Babylon', p.77). As the cuneiform symbol for 'ilu' can also be read as 'An' Ilu-ma-ilu, an ally of Ram-Sin who was the king of the Sealand dynasty can be seen to be Hanuman. Bali was a very ancient king of Elam-Sumer. Sutala of the Ramayana can be the very ancient site of Sih-talu in Iran. The names Hetumand (Hilmand), Dandakan, Bandar-e Lengeh etc are all found in this area. Prof. D. P. Mishra agreed that Harayu near Herat in Afghanistan can be the sarayu of the Ramayana."
comment 17
mejda date : 03/10/2007 time : 09.14
www.ranajitpal.com

I had written something about the historicity of Rama in the Wikipedia which has been deleted by the ignorant and partisan editors who present a picture of Rama that would be fitting in the medieval ages but is senseless today. My main contention is that the linking of Rama to Ayodhya in Eastern UP in India is absurd and is a legacy of the false British Indology. I believe Rama was a world-hero whose history should be scientifically studied. The Buddhist considered Rama as a great figure.
comment 16
Gatito date : 28/09/2007 time : 18.58

It's OK, I understand that, Khun Trirat. :0
comment 15
Trirat date : 28/09/2007 time : 14.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Gatito, thank you for your interest. I promise to continue the thread on Buddhism in a new blog in a few days. I am marshaling my thoughts. Also the Phuket air disaster and Burmese protest has riveted everyone's attention.

comment 14
Gatito date : 27/09/2007 time : 17.22

Trirat, u seem to work on many topics here and there at the same time until u have no time to put additional content on this Buddha story. So far I have yet to learn from u what kind of the man he is, how he promoted his ideas, or even if he really existed [from your point of views or your readings.] :0
comment 13
Trirat date : 22/09/2007 time : 12.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Yes, Ian, it is the expression of "my" thoughts. But as I said, it may not be a straight Buddhism to Christianity path; as I've already said in comment 11, it is probably Zoroastrianism to Buddhism to Mithraism to New Testament Christianity. Old Testament Christianity is, of course, a direct borrowing from Judaism.

comment 12
Ian date : 21/09/2007 time : 07.51
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Sorry Trirat, when you wrote in comment 9, "For over a century now scholars have noted that Christianity has many ideas probably borrowed from Buddhism. " I assumed that this was also an expression of your thoughts. Hence my subsequent comment:-)
comment 11
Trirat date : 20/09/2007 time : 22.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Ian, I hate to seem as if I have to have the last word! But you said: "Christianity did not borrow from Buddhism but rather that both borrowed from Zoroastrianism."

Isn't this what I just said, or at least implied? Zoroastrianism is older than Buddhism is older than Mithraism is older than Christianity. Obviously the younger religions borrowed from the older religions; not necessarily including all the intermediate steps. Thus probably all borrowed from Zoroastrianism because it's the oldest!

comment 10
Ian date : 20/09/2007 time : 14.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Well I won't open up the debate any wider unless you wish, but I think you will find that Christianity did not borrow from Buddhism but rather that both borrowed from Zoroastrianism.
The previous comment about an alternative theory was of necessity brief, there is actually quite an extensive amount of evidence supporting it.
comment 9
Trirat date : 20/09/2007 time : 13.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Ian, ever since Charles Darwin’s book “The Origin of Species” hit the stand, evolution has been used to explain everything, including religion. First we are told by Sir James Fraser in “The Golden Bough” that primitive man first believed in magic, and then religion. The pathway from magic to religion is through evolution of ideas. Thus it is no surprise that practically all religions have many points in common because of evolution and outright borrowings.

For over a century now scholars have noted that Christianity has many ideas probably borrowed from Buddhism. Here is just one of many blogs setting out the similarities: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1652/BuddhaChrist.html

comment 8
Ian date : 20/09/2007 time : 08.15
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Trirat, there is an alternative explanation which is slowly gaining ground, I wonder if you have met it? I will try and briefly describe it.
Firstly an examination of the core concepts of most present and extinct religions shows that they share many basic ideas, floods, war amongst the Gods, religious names and titles, etc.
Also all of these religions, from the Americas to Asia, arose in navigable riverine territories, for example the Nile, Euphrates and Indus cultures. Furthermore they all came into existence around the same time.
These are simple facts, the theory is more imaginative, it postulates a global culture and global religion. This was destroyed by the global rise in sea levels at the end of the last ice age, about 12,000 BP.
Remnants of this former culture survived inland along the banks of the world's great rivers. These lost contact with each other and evolved in their own divergent ways, yet retaining many core beliefs.
comment 7
Trirat date : 20/09/2007 time : 01.29
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

I had a query about Dr Ranajit Pal's theory, too. So I emailed him and he was kind enough to respond. Here is my email and his response.

Dear Dr Pal,

I have read your websites regarding Alexander and Polibothra with interest and it all makes sense to me. I understand that you believe that Jones mistakenly identified Polibothra with Patna. What I don't understand is how this could relocate Buddha's birthplace to Seistan. For example, if Chinese monks (such as Hsuan-tsang or Xuanzang) of the seventh century AD go searching for Lumbini in North India/Nepal then surely people then must have thought that was where Buddha was born even before Jones' deductions about Polibothra.

If you could just give me a few lines as a hint, or even better, have a look at my blog here http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat/2007/09/17/entry-2 and leave a comment, I’d be extremely grateful.

With highest regards

Trirat Petchsingh

Dear Dr. Petchsingh,

At the outset please accept my apologies if you have found my work disconcerting. I have written something about Rama which most Indians find offensive. My basic position is that the linking of Gotama to Lumbini, or for that matter Piprawha, is a result of fraud by Dr. Fuhrer. I accept Debala Mitra’s contention that there is no trace of urbanism in Nepal before the first (or second century) BC. What she says about Nepal is also largely true of Patna or Gaya. No Indian or Nepalese Buddhist artefact can be dated before the 3rd century BC which shows that Cunningham was wrong about Gaya and other places. In my opinion the recent work of Dr. R. Conningham, who makes no mention of Dr. Fuhrer’s wrongdoings, is an attempt to whitewash the misdeeds of the British colonists and perpetuate falsehood.
I have located Palibothra in Iran-Baluchistan which was the center of ancient India. A Buddhist monastery was discovered by Sir Aurel Stein at Kuh-e Khwaja in Seistan which has murals said to be the earliest vestiges of Gandhara art. The nearby site of Dahan-e Gholaman also echoes Gotama’s name. Most important of all I have identified Gomata of the Behistun inscription with Gotama. Unlike Dr. R. Conningham or Dr. Martin Carver, editor of Antiquity, I do not consider the Chinese evidences relevant because these were written a thousand years later when people had lost touch with true history.

Regards,

Dr. Ranajit Pal

(By the way, I am a “Dear” but not a “Dr.” until I get that honorary doctorate from X University.)

comment 6
Trirat date : 19/09/2007 time : 22.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Ian, once again I think we are in agreement, so no need to look up your reference books. Basically, I’m saying that movement of peoples and ideas was from west to east into India: the Aryan invasion (if there was one), Alexander the Great’s incursion, and the Mongol and Moslem invasions come readily to mind.

On the other hand those who tried to move east to west did not have much success, such as the British imperialists who tried to intrude into Afghanistan from India. So it would seem that having Buddhism originate in North India and then move west goes against the tide of history, which is the main thesis of my blog.


comment 5
Ian date : 19/09/2007 time : 19.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Trirat, You have an uncanny knack of always raising interesting topics when I am in Thailand and away from my personal library of reference books
So All I can say from memory is that Zoroastrianism well predates Buddhism and that there are many parallel concepts between the two religions, hence the influence must have been from west to east.
comment 4
Trirat date : 19/09/2007 time : 10.58
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Ian, if I understand your question: yes, the Iranian link is well-known, but it was from east to west; i.e. Buddhism arose in India and was propagated to Iran. But I believe (following Ranajit Pal) that it happened the other way round.

Study of Indian (and Buddhist) history wasn't scientifically studied until the 19th century and there is little documentary evidence to base it on.

comment 3
Ian date : 19/09/2007 time : 08.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Trirat, I thought the Iranian link was well established quite a long time ago?
comment 2
JohanV date : 18/09/2007 time : 03.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thethoughtmire

Thanks for the map. Nice ;))
comment 1
JohanV date : 17/09/2007 time : 22.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thethoughtmire

Trirat, very interesting, indeed. Could you find a map or so detailing where the 'indian' part of Persia would have been located ? Afghanistan ?

Btw, the sight of those blown-up Bamyian Buddhas makes me want to cry everytime I see it. The Taleban really managed to hit a 2000-year low of human behaviour there.. :(

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