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Friday , September 5 , 2008
Undemocratic rule of mob
Posted by supalak , Reader : 2933 , 15:10:36   | Category : Thailand  
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If the country has no rule of law and lacks of ability of law enforcement, the so-called democracy has already perished. Thai society was misled by the group of people called themselves People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) on the true meaning of democracy and freedom of assembly.

The protesters dishonestly employed the article 63 of the military-sponsored constitution to shield themselves from legal actions and hijacked the term "civil disobedience" to prevent social criticism.

The article 63 of the constitution says pretty clear that people have the right to stage peaceful protest without weapons. Its second paragraph makes clearer that such freedom of assembly must not be prohibited unless the authorities enforce the law to protect people convenience in using public places; or to keep order of the country during war or the state of emergency.

By spirit of the law, people in democratic society have their own freedom of expression to show their political opinion. Agree or disagree, the authorities must allow them to speak freely through any means including their own mouths, media and street protest.

However, there is no right to violate the law in mature democratic society. Civil disobedience is not a pretext to violate the law and it is not the right to stay above the law. Mahatma Gandhi, the spiritual leader of India who used the civil disobedience in the struggle for independence against British Empire made clear that he would voluntarily submit to the arrest when any people in authority seeks the arrest to any civil resister.

Look at what the PAD has done over the past months when it staged a protest against the elected government of Samak Sundaravej. Their actions mostly run against the constitution, democratic norm and the so-called civil disobedience.
They has staged the protest on the traffic surface of the capital where is the most congested traffic of the world. Blocking the roads basically harms public utility of traveling and that is against the laws, not only the traffic law but also the constitution.

Storming into state properties at the NBT television station and the government house is not the constitutional right.

The protesters have their basic right to express their political desire to have the Prime Minister stepped down but there is no law to guarantee the right to stage the street protest to topple the government. When the group of people comes out to express their political will, the right has already been utilized and over. The protesters' aim to topple the government by other means out of the channels mentioned in the constitution is obviously against the Penal Code. The charge of treason could not be avoided.

Associated protests called by the state enterprises to put pressure to the government for the same goal is also against the law. Labor law allows workers to strike to improve working conditions, but the protest to achieve political goal is not guaranteed by the law.

In democratic country, of course, ordinary citizens have the right to topple the government, which runs the country against the will of the population. Thailand, too, has many legal mechanisms to bring the corrupt government down. Samak and his cabinet's member as well as his ruling People's Power Party and two other coalition parties are facing legal actions possibly resulting in ending of his government.

Street protest to force him leave the office is unnecessary unless the protesters have other ultimate goal which might be undemocratic and hurt the country's rule of law.


Read comment

comment 48
wch date : 16/09/2008 time : 11.34

Matichon's editorial is often biased and colluded often with interested group.

For instance, without the written data, they can not write the expectant outcome of court trial of Samak's defamation case booked on 25th.
Certainly the 'data' must be given from an personnel working in the court.

The defamation case can be simply annihilated by the withdrawal of the defamed, that is reserved by Samak's choice.
A media can not set a circumstance biased against the defendant, Samak. It is very bad.
comment 47
Outsider date : 15/09/2008 time : 21.55
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/outsider

Ah yes mob rule the Thai way! After all the turmoil not to mention billions of Bht in lost business the mob who claimed to be ridding the country of Thaksin and his excesses and who also condescendingly think that the poor aren't educated enough to choose a PM, have now given the country his brother in law! Yes two cheers for the mob! Sorry folks fact is a mob is anything but democratic.
comment 46
Plaadip date : 15/09/2008 time : 15.02

I read the interview of the ex-FM in Matichon, which you accused as a flip-flopper. I think the fundamental reason for his resignation is that he is not tough enough both mentaly and physically. I guess he himself might have some helth preblem too. (You would notice the weakness of his voice)
In a domocratic country, even the deplomatic issue cannot be a sanctuary from public opinion.(I think the Nation pointed it out with some reservation for the article 190, which made the editorial confusing.) It is very normal that a diplomatic decision becomes a subject of critisizim from social groups even in matured democracy. If he think that he cannot stand it, he is not a right person for the job in this coutry, which I think, is most democratic in SE asia. About article 190, I think the issue of the Peah Vihiar is a kind of issue on which public consensus or groundwork for that is most necessary whether or not you have the ariticle 190 in your constitution. There should not be any short-cut on this type of issue. We have a similar situation with Russia about our territory and most Japanese, including me, think that it's almost impossible to get it back. But if our goverment would suddenly declare that they has abandoned our claim to the territory, we would surely not accept it. The right wing people would be carried away, but so called "silent majority" would also never allow such a audacitcy of the elected government. And I think that's why the article 190 stipulated that it is necessary to have public participation or at least the Parliament approval to decide on such an issue.

I wonder why the Matichon did not ask about Thaksins' passports and their extradition to the ex-FM. I had the impression in the Stichai Yoon's interview, which was made before the indicent of Sept. 2, that the government non-action on that could be one of the reason of his resignation. It was almost sure that he had already decided to step down, becasuse he said he might not go to the UN meeting, which is a kind of thing that otherwise any FMs should never mentioned.

I may be obsessed with Thaksin. Ordinary Thais seem not care much about it. Take the Thakisn's popularity aside, it is a quesion of the dignity of your country. Maybe I am wrong becasue the mentality is different. Thais must be seeking a solution in a Thai's way.
comment 45
supalak date : 14/09/2008 time : 12.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

thank Plaadip for your active participation. Before putting the point, let me explain something about media indusry. As long as the discussion is in my blog, it does not represent The Nation's view. It is not abnormal that a journalist might have personal view against the editorial line. If you are the real fan of this paper, you might realise this situation every well. Other newspapers are also not different. Matichon editorial, if you like, also has different view from its journalist at the FOM beat.

So I don't mind the paper's editorial line on Khun Tej and it is not the subject of dicussion here, either.

If you want to know my personal view, on the matter. Let me say that Khun Tej joined Samak's government to fix up relation with Cambodia over the Preah Vihear, damaged by PAD and the Democrat's movement.

Like it or not, right or wrong, the nationalist attitude employed by Democrat and the PAD led the relation into a difficulty. What khun Tej has done over the past month he was in the office is to negotiate eveything back to normal, back to status quo. I made a clear point occasionally in my articles in the paper that the move against Cambodia's proposal would create unnecessary rift with Cambodia. Thailand would not achieve anything from PAD and the Democrat move. Bangkok would lose nothing and get nothing, either.

I think you have already known the reason why Khun Tej resigned. If not, I would say some..that because of pressure from PAD members in high society on his wife, not because Samak's government did anything wrong in the foreign affairs. He even said to journalists at the FOM beat that "nationalist" and the article 190 in the consitution caused a lot of troubles for his job to mend relation with Cambodia.

I did not involve in writing editorial for a period of time, but I think the editorial line to endorse Khun Tej because of his personal background and reputation as a good civil servant in foreign service. But you cannot jump into conclusion quickly that I will not do anything if I find he does something wrong. I never see he's wrong just because he joins samak's government. A person who has such logic is a person who has a bad judgement.
comment 44
Plaadip date : 13/09/2008 time : 22.45

Sorry for the misuse of the word. Not tribal but trivial and other misspelling as always. I would like to question about the Nation's editorial when the Det was appointed as foreign misniter. I don't know whether you took part in writing that, but I was surprised that the Nationwrote if he was appointed as FM, the readers should think that everythihg he did is for true national interests. How could the Nation abandon its role as a watch dog of the admisintrative powe so easilyr, jsut because the right person is apointed? Where is the guarantee that all he watns be implemented under then Samak government? Do the people accept everything that the FM do? Now he resinged because he could not stand what the PPP govt. forced him to do. He can't stand it so according to The Nation's logic, what government was doing agaist your national interests. And will it change for better when a person from other than Samak be the PM? Supalak, you seems to be in charge of MOF. I would like you to present your opinion on this, if you dear to do it.
comment 43
Plaadip date : 13/09/2008 time : 22.10

You think that I don't know the Maticon was pro Thakisn before and after the cuop and after this DEMOCRATIC elected govern ent established they started to carry more anti-Thakisn and pro-PAD articles? Do you weigh the depth of my thought because of that? It is the Nation who is waiting to see what sdie the cats jump after the coup,and after the Samak government established becuase your newspaper mind what the human right activists in the west thinkg about the situation than the fate of your country. I guess that the nation changed its attitude becasue of your rype of journalsits. And now you are sidelinded that you miscalculate the situation how this PAD phenomina influenced the Thai politics, right? Innitiallly I just pointed out that The Nation shoud cover the PAD accoring to the importance to the society, because that is a phonemina in the society. But you just are clinging to the tribal arguments such as their using of pablic domein which is exactly the same talking points that PPP raised up. You realize that now it was wrong, right. This is a social phenomeina that was caused by the public greivance that the MSM and the check and balance system can not correct the illeagal interferance of semi-Thakisin regume to get him off the fook. What did you do to response from the such a greivance from the people. That is the point that I am pointing out always. Think! Supalak. And I will see The Nation will present their oppinon after Sompong ro Somchai be elected. You have already wrote that the passport of Thakisns should be revoked. Do you change your opinion? Do you affirm your stance accoring to your principle? The readers will be watching you.
comment 42
Plaadip date : 13/09/2008 time : 13.02

Mr. Ian OK. I won't do that again.
comment 41
supalak date : 12/09/2008 time : 12.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

thank Ian for reminding Plaadip, but it's okay I can read Thai. By linking such editorial realized me how deep Plaadip's thought.

But Plase, Plaadip, make arguement intellectually. Plase do not change the point or try to insult my profession when you cannot react reationally.

What kind of journalist I am is not the point. I can distinguish between normal and abnormal situation. But I am not paranoid during the crisis and try to think rationally what is going on in my country. I have ability to analyse what's right or wrong.

You might admire the journalists who once pro Thaksin and later changed position after business deal was broken. I would not criticise for that, but please do not try to compare me with those persons. I play in different league.

I write freely and fairly for all parties. Thaksin, Surayut, Samak whoever in the power, I reported on what they did and criticised on what they did wrong. I have a very clear mind when I work.
comment 40
Ian date : 12/09/2008 time : 04.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Plaadip, I wish you would not give links to a Thai article in an English language blog.
comment 39
Plaadip date : 12/09/2008 time : 03.03

Supalak
Uuum... maybe you are a type of journalist who's lacking in the ability to feel how abnormal situation Thai politics has been in since Samak government established. I guess you were not frastrated with the situaition of the Thai press in Thakisn's time too. Yeah, I think it's better for you to discuss here what MATURED democracy means in an unmatured domocratic society.

Today's Matichon's editorial

http://www.matichon.co.th/matichon/view_news.php?newsid=01edi01120951§ionid=0102&selday=2008-09-12
comment 38
supalak date : 11/09/2008 time : 22.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

Plaadip;

Childish?,,um may be... but not naive, I'm sure,to believe the protesters could bring clean politic to this country. I dont mind whether the PAD would win or loss, but I do mind the way they fight. My point is very clear if you want to install clean and clear democracy in this country, you badly need rule of law. If you want to tell Thaksin-Samak and their gang to respect and obey the law, you first must show them how people in this country respect and obey the law. You blamed them for abuse of power and violation of the law, but you do the same. So, how can we establish the rule of law doctrine. The problem of people in this country is that we only point the figure to blame other people. The people who took the street to accuse Samak of immorality is the same person who cheat his business partners. The protest leader who point the fingers to Thaksin for concealing the asset is the same person who used his secretary's name to hold illegal piece of land in Chiang Rai. Do you think this is the high ground moral? If you believe these kind of people could lead you to the clean politics, go ahead. I will not follow them.

Other journalists might be busy with competting with anti-graft body to dig corruption case, fine if they love to. But I think the other job of good journalist who want his/her country to be MATURE democracit country is to suggest what is right or wrong way to fight for the democracy. For me, corruption in government projects is no big deal if people in this country could establish the rule of law and effective law enforcement. I'm blogging to do my job to suggest that democracy is not only the end but also the mean. You will never reach democracy if your process to the goal is undemocratic.

If keep fighting in this way, the PAD might win eventually, but what we get would not a clean politic, no need to mention democracy.
comment 37
Plaadip date : 11/09/2008 time : 19.50

Steven. This is the fighting elite vs elite, and both sides are soliciting military support. In every society elites have commanding posts to rule the country. And in Thai politics, simply getting rid of the military influence in politics could not be a solution. In this political termoil, the army cheif's decision to stay put under state of emergency is supported by more than 80 percent of Thai according to a poll. People expect their role in a critical moment of their county. So what you said sounds right, but actually a boring cliche to give no insight for the real politics in Thailand.
comment 36
Steven date : 11/09/2008 time : 17.01

Thai democracy will never mature as long as the head of the military and elite keep hanging over on top of democracy.
comment 35
Plaadip date : 11/09/2008 time : 14.25

Supalak. I think your idea is a little bit childish. I don't think PAD's hidden agenda, if they have any, would succeed anyway. No leaders of political movements are saint. They always have their personal agendas. More important than that is the function or role that a political movement has in a social, political situation in the society. I think PAD has to win this time, otherwise there would be the same party's rule which does not care about any political ethics at all, continuing their majority role without responding to any legitimate criticisms. It had happened in Thakisn's time and finally ended in the military coup.

Don't worry. There would not be such a thing as 100 percent victory in a political world. PAD could win but will not be able to push their new politics with 70 percent appointed MPs. They are retreating already after they realized the public response. My opinion is that the PAD's partial win will create a better political power balance in this country, but the complete defeat of PAD will deteriorate it further because of virtual non-existence of political counter balance.

The PAD's hardliner reproach is partly legitimized by the week media which looked to abandon their watch dog's role on the government abuse of power. What about the LPG gas scandal? Why no media did make a press campaign against it? Why did not the scandal hit the headlines times and times? I saw on TV that a Nation TV’s announcer questioned if the LPG bus story or the new parliament issue are important enough as a reason to topple a government? Of course, yes. A democratically elected government can be toppled by a media campaign against such a SMALL? wrong-doing, that's why the legitimateley elected government tries not to make such a SMALL mistake. And that's why MATURE democracy can work without STREET GANG extremists occupying the government house.

The largest opposition took up the huge misspending of the government in the parliament won't have enough weight for the media to pursue it? In other country with MATURED democracy, the newspaper reporters would not have time to sleep following the scandal let alone have time to teach your matured version of DEMOCRACY in a blog.
comment 34
Hermano_Lobo date : 10/09/2008 time : 20.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

I agree with Supalak-

There is the danger of a backlash against the mob.

Mob versus Mob. Thai against Thai.

At first I had the mistaken view that the protests were Democracy in action. Then I realised they were contrived by others for their own ends. Innocents conned by a yellow shirt and uncertain allegations.
comment 33
Ian date : 10/09/2008 time : 06.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Plaadip, indeed so, a good dose of scepticism is needed for a healthy democracy:-)
comment 32
Plaadip date : 10/09/2008 time : 04.31

Your democracy is not matured at all, that's why this phenominon has appeared. I think after the PAD movement dies down, Thai democracy will be more matured, becuase people would not believe in the government, main stream medias and the journalists like you in a similar manner that they did before.
comment 31
rad date : 09/09/2008 time : 11.02

supalak,
You gloss over the government,s responibility here, protesters could take over JFK airport if they were allowed to do so by the government.

You are trying to assign some of the responsibility of the government to the protest group.

The group is like a child it will do what it can get away with and like here, where there is no adult supervision, read that as the government, the child runs wild. The child has a different goal and that goal is not behaving in an orderly manner.

Plus there seem to be at least three legitimate governments here, the elected one, the military one and the police one. Then there is the privy council and HMK.

Hard to maintain a democracy with that many layers of unelected supervision.
comment 30
supalak date : 09/09/2008 time : 10.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

Special for Dalmasian.

If have time, I believe you have plenty of, my I recommend a good book for your food of thought to have better understanding about democracy and protest. I use to have a wrong impression on protest like you. I previously believed the protest we have, the more democratic we are. I realise shortly after the 2006 that the street protest sometime never bring democracy to our society. Recently I found a book by Nancy Bermeo to confirm my thought. The book entitle; Ordinary People in Extraordinary Times: The Citizenry and the Breakdown of Democracy. The book is based on a good research on political movement in Latin American to show that how democracy work and how it does not work. Interestingly, it was people movement or if you like leftist term "civil society"--which is later popular among NGOs--who hurt democracy. It's not really a new book, copy right registered in 2003.
comment 29
supalak date : 09/09/2008 time : 10.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

Also sorry Dalmasian, very sorry about you knowledge on democracy. May I suggest you to study a bit more on the right of assembly in democratic society. No need to return back too far--if go back to Greek, you might find people like you have no political right at all-- just simply read your own constitution. All most all constitution in the world guarantee the right of assembly and freedom of expression but they never say all kind of protests are lawfull. For the benefit of assembly, do you think you can storm into the White House? Does the American constitution allows people to close JFK airport for political purpose? If you are in Thailand, the military-sponsored constitution never guarantee to people's right to storm the gov't house too. You can argue that the the 2007 constitution is not so democratic, but the most democractic constitution, the 1974 and 1997 versions also did not guarantee the right of assembly in the gov't house. Please think twice, you might confuse between democracy and anarchy.
BTW, Please do not use your "Thai Thai" arguement to say The Nation should not allow me to blog because I voice no support to the protesters. Here we have freedom of expression.
comment 28
Ian date : 09/09/2008 time : 04.36
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Dalmasian, You are half right, when you write, "Protesting is a natural extension of the democratic process. ", you left out one important word , "peacefully".
A peaceful protest shows solidarity with an ideal, a violent protest shows disregard for fellow citizens, property and the law.

This right to PEACEFUL assembly is recognised by America in the 1st amendment
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/Assembly/overview.aspx
And in most other countries which endorse international law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly

If you bother to read these links you will find the word PEACEFUL features very prominently.

Thus Supalak is correct.
comment 27
Dalmasian date : 08/09/2008 time : 23.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/dalmasian

I am sorry, supalak. You are wrong. Protesting is a natural extension of the democratic process. When parliamentary redress processes do not work, there is only one thing left to do -- protest on the streets to get your message across.

Protesting is not only a process to redress grievances that cannot be redressed otherwise, it is also lawful and legal in a democratic society. Now, for a Nation Newspaper staff, I would expect you to be knowledgeable about these things before you start blogging about the subject.

-- Dalmasian
comment 26
Ian date : 08/09/2008 time : 21.15
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Outsider, no problem, under the education system they will still pass their exams, they might have to pay a bigger bribe for their piece of paper.
comment 25
Outsider date : 08/09/2008 time : 21.06
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/outsider

Rule by mob is nothing new in this country it has just be called different things at different times and is aided and abetted by systemic corruption and pork barreling. What I find funny now is that students are going to boycott classes I guess the rationale here is that by being stupid it will bring the government down "Duh Oh!"
comment 24
Ian date : 08/09/2008 time : 19.58
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, there is a strange circular logic here, laws are created by parliament, the courts and judges are then given the power to enforce these laws, the judges then are asked to pass judgement on the actions of members of parliament.
In England we get over this by having three sources for law, Common Law, Precedent Law and Statute law. It is only Statute law which is controlled by Parliament.
In Thailand Common law, (which some call Organic Law), and Precedent Law, are both replaced by a Constitution.
The problem is that as the constitution changes every few years there is no stability in the process of law.
If constitutions can be repealed and amended at will then law becomes an arbitrary concept based on power rather than justice.
comment 23
rad date : 08/09/2008 time : 08.45

Ian,
I got all of that. One man one vote, 55% turn out, probably average in a non major national election. The 45% who didn't show for what ever reason gave their proxies to the 55, their choice.

Proportional takes that vote from them and gives it to a higher authority. Now if 100% vote they still have no more power than the original example.

The 45% lost their power, no option to vote or sit it out.

I believe that if most politicians were honest TRT/PPP would still win. But that is part of growing.

Gets back to supalak's thoughts about the court playing a major role.
comment 22
Ian date : 08/09/2008 time : 02.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Rad, examine the case of my last district council election, and my local councillor, the turnout was 55% and he had a 65% share of the vote. In other words 35% of the electorate actually voted for him.So although he may claim to speak for the people in my ward, in reality he only speaks for 35% of them. Of the people that actually took an interest he represents 65%, Yet we call this democracy
This is the problem with the one man one vote system, it only truly represents the voice of the people when everyone uses their vote.
Now this councilman does not have an opposite number representing those who voted against him, it is a first past the post, win or lose situation.
This of course is the standard argument of those who seek proprtional representation.
Now in Thailand whether one uses first past the post or proportional representation, in each case at the moment the PPP would win.
As this is unacceptable to the large minority in Bangkok, they have to use every means possible to attack the PPP. This to me is the reason behind the fuss about court cases, all the politicians are crooks and corrupt but it is the only line of attack open to the PAD, their 70/30 proposal is simply an admission that they know they cannot win in a straight fight.
comment 21
expresso date : 07/09/2008 time : 23.26
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

c13 from Supalak: "Believe me, allow the system to function, you will have a good thing that make our democracy and political system be more stronger."

OMG! Till hell freezes over in Dante's 9th level of hell? Btw, in Dante's 9th level of hell, it's already frozen there with Satan flipping the wings! OMG!
comment 20
rad date : 07/09/2008 time : 21.35

Ian,
I would guess that you wouldn't bet on a horse that had lost every race, at least not without having a backup plan or a lot of inside information or both.

Sitting and waiting on the court is not a good, only choice. First they take a great deal of time, second they are bound by legal restraints that may not have anything to do with the facts of the case and third they may become corrupted. They are one third of a democratic triangle, the other two also have responsibilities.

I wondered why the 97 constitution required an additional three serarate checks and balances when there were already three, two of which were democratically elected. Can't trust those you elect?

I also wondered why the concern over appointing senators when there are party list candidates.

Each effort to create rules fails because nobody follows the rules, so to even talk about the rule of law is somewhat premature. Need to find someone, somewhere who knows and follows the law first.

The three most over used terms are; the monarchy, the rule of law and democraticaly elected. They are almost always used as an excuse for some action or reaction of some one we disagree with and when we don't have a factual response.
comment 19
supalak date : 07/09/2008 time : 15.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

Hey Dalmasian,
Have you forgot somethings; Samak and his cabinet's members as well as his ruling People's Power Party and two other coalition parties are facing legal actions possibly resulting in ending of his government.
What we need to do is waiting in clam. I never said only PAD leaders should go to the court. I said all parties do anything wrong must to go the court. Prostest is not a part of solution but a part of problem.
comment 18
Ian date : 07/09/2008 time : 07.02
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Comment 17, going in circles I think not, to me it is more like the "drunkards walk", a well known mathematical concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_walk

just a brief extract from the link;

Imagine now a drunkard walking randomly in a city. The city is realistically infinite and arranged in a square grid, and at every intersection, the drunkard chooses one of the four possible routes (including the one he came from) with equal probability. Formally, this is a random walk on the set of all points in the plane with integer coordinates. Will the drunkard ever get back to his home from the bar? It turns out that he will.

Thailand is the drunkard and as random walk theory shows he will eventually reach his destination.
comment 17
Dalmasian date : 06/09/2008 time : 21.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/dalmasian

We seem to be going in circles all the time. Thugsin is good. Samak is good. The PAD id bad. We need to apply the rule of law to the PAD, but not to Samak and the crooks in government. They are above the law. They can do no wrong. The PAD is all wrong. They need to be punished for treason. Samak is so good because he wants to defend democracy and to to serve (serve whom, I wonder?). The PAD needs to stop their demonstrations immediately and get lost. The government cannot do anything because they will be blamed for their actions.

So, what is there left to do? Serve everyone PAD Thai and Singha Beer for a change and hope for divine intervention from Buddha? What a bunch of losers! Amen!

-- Dalmasian
comment 16
Ian date : 06/09/2008 time : 18.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

comment 14, if one works on the assumption, "it has never happened in the past so it will not happen now", then you are permanently trapped in a "no hope" circle of defeat.
No matter how many tries it takes this circle has to be broken, it cannot be broken by mob law, that makes the circle stronger.
comment 15
supalak date : 06/09/2008 time : 15.17
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

Rad date

If you believe the 2001 court could be sold, why do you believe the 2008 court won't be sold to the other side. Certainly, I understand some personals in Thai justice system could be sold out, but nobody could buy the entire system. Thaksin might survive once from Con.Court in 2001 but he would not escape forever. If you believe in justice and rule of law, please have faith in the entire syetem. Don't believe it, just because it would rule in your favor.
comment 14
rad date : 06/09/2008 time : 14.51

supalak,
The only problem I see with your position is that it has never happened before. Sitting back and waiting for the court sounds good to me, but if you had told me that in 2001, I sure would have been disappointed when justice wasn't served, but sold.
comment 13
supalak date : 06/09/2008 time : 14.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/supalak

Piset
As long as we are not the court, we cannot judge which government is the criminal gang. If you see or have evidence to prove, please go to the court. What make democracy different from anachy is rule of law. I understand Thailand has legal mechanism to prosecute the government. We don't need protesters or mob to bring it down. Believe me, allow the system to function, you will have a good thing that make our democracy and political system be more stronger. I don't believe in PAD's judgement. I don't belive they could bring justice to the country. What they are doing now is to turn my beloved Thailand to be Rwanda where people killed each other just because of hate. Seeing anybody does anything wrong, bring he or she to the court, don't use your own rules.
comment 12
rad date : 06/09/2008 time : 11.09

Ginola, 10

Look at your answer to Piset and your response to me.

The government has a problem? Why don't they use legal constitutional means to deal with it?
Because it is not as easy as that.

Look back at any corrupt regime anywhere and you might see the same problem facing those attempting to remove it. Where was there a resolution with Dr T? There were few if any real choices, wait until he died or until he made an error so large that the citizens turned him, and as you can see it would need to be a giganic mistake. I think he could get reelected today.

In a perfect world your thoughts might work, but, as you can see they aren't working here. No body does their job, they just stand in the pay line.
comment 11
wch date : 06/09/2008 time : 10.40

Democratic mobsters are called People's Power,
Undemocratic cabinet is called CRIME SYNDICATION.
Undemocratic mobsters are called Lynch mobster.
If undemocratic cabinet employs lynch mobster, it is called STATE LYNCH MOBSTER.

PAD mobsters can not be defeated by Samak's State Lynch Mobsters, WHY ?.

PAD is manned with excellent veteran military men, but Samak's by street invalids that can not organize themselves to attack PAD.

If Samak lynch mobsters attack PAD again, this time PAD WILL NOT BE PATIENT.
PAD will show real battle operation.
comment 10
Ginola date : 06/09/2008 time : 09.17
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
ginola

rad ct 2:

I don't think the government enjoys having the PAD around. If possible, the government would love the PAD to disappear!

The only reason why the PAD is still around at the government house is because the government's hands are tied. It cannot use dissolve the protests because doing so would require force and force would reflect badly of the government and the whole thing could turn bloody.

Piset:

If you want to bring down the "criminals" in the government, why not use democratic and constitutional means to do so? Why did you have to invade NBT and close down airports and railway and threaten to cut off supply of public utilities? Why do you have to stay at government house?

There are legal, civilized and constitutional means through which you can bring down a corrupt/incompetent elected government nicely. It might take more time but it is worth it because it is legitimate and everyone in this country, whether or not pro- or anti-government, can agree upon. It also does not provoke violence.

For example, the EC has suggested that the PPP be dissolved. Why doesn't the PAD just wait a little bit and see that this can eventually bring down the government? Is it worth it to force the government out NOW while incurring so many economic costs and deepening the division of the society?
comment 9
Piset date : 06/09/2008 time : 07.10
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

Hey Hemorrhoid_Lobo:

I just met Thugsin and his master, Pojailmarn. He wants you to stop pretending to supporting him. With your kind of argument and adolescent delingquent acts, you can only harm rather than help their reputations. He wants you to bring your supports and your request for sponsorship to his competitors.
comment 8
Piset date : 06/09/2008 time : 07.06
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

Ian:

If you must throw a convicted killer in jail, do you need to ask who would take ove his job?

The point is Samak has willfully and knowingly illegally taken the position of the prime minister, despite his convicted and sentenced criminal records. He has no such rights. At the same time his top agenda as a PM was to change the constitution and laws in order to "laundry" his boss who is a fugitive convicted criminal. He is trying to hang on to a government with at least three major coalition parters with dozens of election law violating MPs and parties facing ousting and party disbanding.

It is a case of treatment for the criminal law violators who seek to continue looting of the nation while protecting the previous national robberies. The point is the crime and punishment. The point is the criminal charges and the rule of evidence.

Supalak:

When a criminal gang took over the government, it is only right that the people do all they can to stop that government's functioning and to throw that government out as quickly as they can.

When you find the armed thieves in your home, what you should do is shoot, in your self defense for the protection of your live and property.

OK, Ian, I have heard that British laws relating to this kind of shooting of the tresspassers from you already, you may repeat it for the fun of othrs.
comment 7
Hermano_Lobo date : 05/09/2008 time : 23.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Pissedyet,

I have asked Khun Thaksin what to do with an enfant terrible that hides in the PRC and attacks the Thaksin family behind safe barracades.

Pissedyet,

" You can run but you cannot hide!"

Thaksin will return as PM.
comment 6
Ian date : 05/09/2008 time : 21.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Piset, it is you who confuse the issue with your constant rantings. So you destroy the government mob rule wins, and the laws go on the back burner.
But I ask you what comes next, not a single PAD supporter seems to have any suggestion as to how we can progress from an inefficient government like the present one, to an effective government.
Or do you regard a 70/30 government as a good democratic government?
comment 5
Piset date : 05/09/2008 time : 20.56
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

The Thaksin's W.C. (Web Crew) suddenly appear all over the blogs with the same or similar lines, that is, attempting to cloud the issue of the disqualified criminally convicted prime minister, who continued with his criminal acts against the people and his criminally and fraudently obtained votes and prosecuted criminal political parties. . . . all behind thier convicted criminal futitive former prime minister.

They try to talk about majority, votes, referandrum, etc.

Folks, this is not an election time. In very brief and simple Thai language, is is a time to bring down the thieves and robbers in that criminal government. Whether they should be brought down or not depend on the prove of their criminal offenses, not any kind of voting.

This is the prosecution of the criminals, not an election or voting of any legislative bills. Please do not confuse the issue.
comment 4
rad date : 05/09/2008 time : 20.09

Pat,
That certainly was a place where criminal prosecution could have taken place.

Way too many bad things could have happened from the interference.

Yet again the government failed to deal with the situation. Any aircraft accident would have been the responsibility of the government, PAD would have been a contributing factor, if it could even be proven that it was them.

The government is paralized with fear. So inaction is their watch word, don't do anything and no one can hold you responsibile for anything.
comment 3
Pat date : 05/09/2008 time : 19.35
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pat

Rad/c2: You made a very good comment, especially the line 'If all is wrong that is stated,why hasn't the government taken action?'. I'm not politically inclined so I'm not qualified to give a political comment. However, I am more concerned about the safety at airports. I thought that airports were manned round the clock by armed personnel and all airports are primarily on high alert for any terrorist attacks. I know that when Phuket airport had demonstrators in the compound, authorities there knew that they were political demonstrators and not terrorist. However, a baddie could have slipped in and then what?
comment 2
rad date : 05/09/2008 time : 17.10

What strikes me odd is that most want PAD to do something, they point out the wrongs, highlight the rule of law, clearly identify what they think PAD has and has not done, but as yet have failed to say what the governments responsibility is in all of this.

If all is wrong that is stated, why hasn't the government taken action? If laws are being broken, why hasn't the government prosecuted them?

Why are citizens who feel as you even having to mention this? Doesn't that seem odd that you would need to take the governments role and speak for them when it is clearly the job of the government to do it.

My opinion is that the government enjoys having PAD around, it has provided them with the best excuse for their lack of performance. We all agree, Gee, no wonder they haven't done anything, its that rotten old PAD.
comment 1
PoNg date : 05/09/2008 time : 15.50
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jaratpon

Um...im having the same thoughts on this issue. But i cannot understand why the PAD would not resort to legal mechanisms available to do the job? Is it because these legal mechanisms are not functioning properly? What the the legal mechanisms avaiable for them to achieve their goals? Is it achieveable?
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