• stalingrad
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Sharing of useful, uplifting information and ideas, especially on politics, society, and economics
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad
Saturday , September 19 , 2009
The enormous importance of 19th September (today)
Posted by stalingrad , Reader : 905 , 07:37:49  
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Today, the big day at last. Will there be a bang ? Or just a whimper? All indications are it will all pass without trouble. The government has bombarded the airwaves with detailed information to the public about what exactly it’s going to do in various scenarios, and it has drawn in civil society and the press to be witness to whatever is going to happen, and judge both sides. The area is also covered in microscopic detail by cameras, so any throwers of bombs will be identified, and hopefully caught (the third hand). With this context, it would be political suicide for the red shirts to attempt more than a peaceful demo. It’s been reported that the red shirts are coming with only a few changes in clothing and supplies, pointing to a short stay.

 

So the only thing that could rapidly change the situation is a bomb exploded somewhere by a third hand or maybe even the first hand.

 

Coup and disturbance makers need to be dealt with harshly-- mercilessly some would say (by civil society; I can't speak for others). Why? because they are putting their interests first and are hugely damaging the prospects of national recovery. How? The PM is abroad trying to attract international confidence in the economy in order to progress the well being of Thai people as a whole. It is a mission that benefits everyone--including the red shirts I might add-- and the expectation is that what will follow is an inflow of tourism and capital after Apisit's discussions with the key international players, as they would be more confident. It has to do with credit ratings, first-hand assessments, confidence-building etc. It would be outrageous to have to be giving speeches and talks with a backdrop of fires, explosions, soldiers firing guns in the air etc. in Bangkok " as he speaks". If so, he might as well scrap the trip. Business will be redirected to Thailand’s competitors.

 

Legally and morally, the red shirts leaders have to take responsibility if anything happens, and can't simply blame it on the third hand; that would be too convenient. A proper leader has got to proudly say I take all the responsibility for bringing my flock here.

 

And why can't the demo be held after Apisit comes back or before he goes? It must have all been planned to coincide with his going abroad. So they themselves have created a situation of high risk, because if Apisit fails in this mission, and cut short his visit, the economic recovery will be set back—don’t forget he’s going to attend the G20 summit too, and all eyes will be on Thailand. If unrest happens, for whatever reason, the red shirts will lose a lot of supporters. They will be seen as merely a special purpose mob, rather than a vanguard of the revolution.

 

Read comment

comment 61
Ian date : 27/09/2009 time : 16.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Stal, I'm very glad to see you using this word, "negotiating". It makes a pleasant change from the jingoistic rhetoric of some of your companions in this blogsite.
comment 60
stalingrad date : 27/09/2009 time : 13.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Ian, yes, may well be. Anyway,they have all to be registered as a matter of policy. And I heard eventually all immigration facilities will move to Jaeng Wattana, the Suan Plu site is a ghetto.

There are hundreds of thousands of Kampuchian unregistered migrant workers here, many of whom could be spies and saboteurs if a war--cold, warm etc.-- should occur. But the migrant workers will be used as negotiating chip by both countries, and a force for peace and reason, because both gain in the process. They get work, Thais get cheap labour.
comment 59
Ian date : 27/09/2009 time : 08.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Stal, as you are a Thail you may not be that interested in the activities of your immigration department. However it just might have some bearing. Basically the original building will now only deal with people from Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia. All other foreigner will use the new premises at Chaengwattana road. This comes into effect from tomorrow.

Most from Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia are economic migrants, they come here to earn money.
Most westerners come here to spend money.

Could this be an opening move in some sort of tit for tat actions against Cambodia? Separating them from other aliens?
comment 58
stalingrad date : 26/09/2009 time : 06.56
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Ian c.50: I think it’s about territory, not face. Land is a highly valued resource, and 4.5 km. especially around there can be useful in many ways to the villagers. In any case, the government—any government-- is duty bound to prevent loss of territory. There probably will be small clashes to prove a point, to warn, etc. But an uneasy solution will be found. For the Thai side, the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Kampucheans migrant labour make things complicated, as they could be an internal security issue.

ND c.52: riddles, riddles. These things which we mortals have no power or influence over will be sorted out by deities. Looking at history, deities have intervened many times to turn darkness into a light, by working through humans.

The Police chief issue could turn out to be a compromise, a third candidate. Or an acting chief could remain acting for a while, while talks are going on and Apisit softens up some parties. On his return, Apisit’s position will harden, for certain reasons, so whatever choice he makes, it won’t be a police chief from the other side.

October is a crucial month, and could be a turning point. But I don’t foresee a repeat of April violence. If it happens, Thaksin stands to lose a lot because last April’s violence was seen to be conceived by him. So he has an interest in preventing a repeat. And very unlikely a coup will happen, because a cleverly staged de facto coup has already happened. And from now on, the government will be on a cold war path and resolve this Thaksin problem once and for all, meaning Thaksin if he wants to salvage himself should exit politics for a while and maybe become a monk. That’s an available strategy. Note politicians have chosen this route for obvious reasons. Whether it’s a sincere move is another matter. But politically, it’s equivalent to a truce. Thaksin cannot hope to win because he has angered certain supreme beings by his accumulated conduct. To be able to win is an illusion, but cosmopolitans and materialists like him, shorn of mysticism, can’t understand this. But looking into a crystal ball, there really is a good way out for him.
comment 57
HA_HA date : 25/09/2009 time : 22.42

ba rue plao, mis?
comment 56
HA_HA date : 25/09/2009 time : 22.41

c55, hey this is not about Thaksin ok? ..don't be so obsessed. I was just kidding.

But i mean it in the first sentense. If it's like what you said. The government should get the land back.

"if we are to lose the land it's very serious".
Now without the second sentence, do you still think i pro Thaksin?
comment 55
notdisappointed date : 25/09/2009 time : 22.18


55 c53, all you have to do is keep cheering on your hero thaksin and perhaps you'll receive some crumbs. Since you could care less that the Khmers are absorbing our sovereign land.

As long as thaksin says its OK then for you it's OK.
comment 54
SARDINES date : 25/09/2009 time : 21.21

ND C. 52

As I do not know any bigwigs as yourself, I can not dispute. thank you for sharing your info.

SARDINES
comment 53
HA_HA date : 25/09/2009 time : 17.23

c52, mis... if we're to lose our land that's very serious na. mis. should go to the front to chase them away na.
comment 52
notdisappointed date : 24/09/2009 time : 17.47

Sorry to be dropping names. Today I had lunch with K Nitya Pibul. the former Perm. Sec. of Mo FA and former Minister of Mo FA as well as two other ex-ministers during the thaksin regime.

In his edification to us of the situation of Phra Viharn, drawing a map on the back of an envelope; he categorically states that the 4.6 sq Km is Thai and has always been Thai. The Khmers are the ones who have disputed this, not Thailand.

Therefore ‘pladip c.51’, is correct Na Chart being the diplomat he was, did allow the Khmers to transact business in the area, allowing them to come in on 'day passes'. It was only during the thaksin regime did the Khmers begin their settlement there. This was more than diplomatic, more akin to an abdication of Thailand’s sovereignty and which thereby gave the Khmers more leverage in negotiations.

Thailand’s 4.6 sq Km does in fact hold the key to the demarcation in the Gulf of Thailand. Not only that, it will have an affect on other negotiations of Thai territory in another temple area in Buri Ram.

Sar. Re c49. I think that I said it clearly: “The only solution is to let them know, in no uncertain terms that we will kick them out forcefully and with extreme prejudice if they continue in their occupation of our sovereign territory!” If you wish a more definitive answer; then yes I would suggest that we forcefully evict the Khmers from Thai territory. And if it comes to a border war then so be it. What better way to end this divisiveness and bring about reconciliation than a nice war along “nationalistic” lines? Western countries have been doing it for years.

Stal. C47. I’m of two minds. One I think that nopadon will be scape-goated to free the remaining former ministers; or two the whole samak cabinet will be adjudged guilty. And it does appear that nopadon did conveniently use the wrong map. How convenient for thaksin plans for a casino on Koh Kong or as an ‘agent’ to the drilling rights in the Gulf.

Next week is gonna be fun not only because of the NACC ruling; but also that AV will return and the police thing will heat up again. FYI, I learnt from an unimpeachable source, that ‘someone’ has said to the effect that – “AV is already ‘challenging’ my ‘authority’”, of this certain ‘someone’. Scary!! But I think that AV wouldn’t be so stubborn if he didn’t have an antidote of similar blood lines.
comment 51
Plaadip date : 24/09/2009 time : 13.13

C48, I am not 100% sure but, I think the temple was opened for the toursit in Chatchai's time. I read that in a newspaper article before.(And I'm not sure that the Thai government was dealing with KR or the CPP government in those days.)

But once the two countries agreed to keep the disputed area intact until the demarcation completed, Cambodian gorvernment should, at least, freeze the contsruction, or migration of their people in the area.But I think that they(Cambodia) are doing the opposite, they increased their activity in the area. I think that one of the reason is they consider the successful solo registration of the temple in WHC as the defacto recognition of Cambodian sovereignty on the disputed territory by Thai government and the international community.

Cambodia gave the concession of oil drilling in the disputed sea area to a Japanese company this month. Thei claim on the sea is also based on the same map they based their claim on the disputed territory around the PV temple. So even if you take off the factor of "Thaksin conspiracy", the PV and map is still a big issue for Thailand's national interests, IMO.
comment 50
Ian date : 24/09/2009 time : 09.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

In any modern war there are no winners, America can attest to this. A war costs billions in expenses and perhaps thousands in lives.
This is not really a conflict over sovereignty of a tiny parcel of land, it is really all about "face".
Thailand has "nailed its colours to the mast" and is engaging in jingoistic rhetoric, Cambodia is doing the same.
In the process the locals (Thai and Cambodian) suffer, the international standing of both countries suffer, and the relations between both countries suffer.
Does the word "compromise" exist in the Language of Thailand and Cambodia, or is compromise always seen as weakness?
Is this dispute good for Thailand or is it simply being pursued for political gain by a few individuals.
Where is the real gain if Thailand owned this land, would more rice be grown, would the economy improve, would education, health and general infrastructure improve.
Of course not, this is all about "face", Thai and Cambodian, and face has no merit in a global community, face is for children and immature adults.
comment 49
SARDINES date : 24/09/2009 time : 08.52

ND,

one more question for you. this is not a jab or being sarcastic but an honest question. From reading several posters' comments here, or at least Veera's statement that since the military already in the state of marshall law in the area, that they should go in and force the Cambodians out.

This would run an extremely high risk(probably of confrontation with the Cambodian military and would almost certainly resulting in a full out war. Would you be willing for Thailand to take this route on this particular issue?
comment 48
SARDINES date : 24/09/2009 time : 08.37

ND c 46:

I have heard that those Cambodians with there stalls, etc in the 4.6km area were there even much more prior to the TK administration and not just start creeping in the last few years.

However, I'm not sure of this and relying on only 2nd hand info. Are you sure of your statement that they only started moving over during TRT admin or is your info 2nd hand on this particular issue such as mine?
comment 47
stalingrad date : 24/09/2009 time : 06.52
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

nd: re your last para. I didn't know that. How do you think the NACC will judge, because if Nopadol used that map, he's got to be the culprit ( can't claim he didn't know; coz he's paid to know these things). I heard this man has got a permanent illness of some kind. Any news on this ? It was leaked by I think P'Pong of ASTV. He however looks pretty healthy, the same with Thaksin; I don't see him looking that unhealthy.
comment 46
notdisappointed date : 23/09/2009 time : 23.47


Stal you hit it on the head with your remarks of a creeping occupation of sovereign Thai territory by the Khmers.

However I think that the only solution is for the Khmers to leave Thai territory; however we can let them in on day passes, to do tourism business. But no it's not a 'buffer zone'.

The terminology connotes territory that is in dispute. There is no dispute that this 4.6 sq Km is Thai sovereign territory! And to offer those wordings gives the Khmers more room to negotiate joint custody or a buffer zone. That we Thais cannot agree to.

The only solution is to let them know, in no uncertain terms that we will kick them out forcefully and with extreme prejudice if they continue in their occupation of our sovereign territory!

Next week hopefully we'll see the NACC adjudge noppadon fro malfeasance in his 'secret' joint communique with the Khmers. The Supreme Court has already adjudged the samak cabinet guilty of malfeasance for this act. What the thaksin puppet did was to use a map that Thailand HAS ALWAYS DISPUTED and not accepted, which shows that Khamphucea is the possessor of the land in question.
comment 45
SARDINES date : 23/09/2009 time : 22.17

c44:

Actually, I'm of the opinion that many times laws are the equivalence of quotes, formed after zillions of experiences

:)
comment 44
stalingrad date : 23/09/2009 time : 21.12
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Sardines : Answer: 1. " You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" (BTW, quotes are the equivalence of laws, formed after zillions of experiences)

2. "There's more than one way to skin a cat"
comment 43
SARDINES date : 23/09/2009 time : 20.16

welcome back stalingrad. c42:

your point about a "no man's zone" is interesting. Thailand has already successfully done this with Malaysia down in the South.

Your 2nd comment does interest me more.
quote: "...when his government looked the other way in exchange for certain private advantages related to oil and gas in the Gulf/Thailand near the Cambodia border, so the story goes...."

Do you feel that this is true that TK traded for concessions in the gulf for oil / gass? If yes, then I don't think it would be a personal gain because such concessions must be paid to the country of Thailand and not into a private individual's pockets.

Would not our country actually gain more than this? If you have more info. on this, please elighten me. thanks
comment 42
stalingrad date : 23/09/2009 time : 19.35
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Hi, just got back and looked at the remarks. My preliminary conclusion is:

1. The Cambodians have been practicing creeping occupation like the Jewish settlers, building rather permanent structures like a temple etc. The land is claimed from the Cambodian point of view. From the Thai view, it is theirs, with maps and border demarcations to prove it, noting the "bulge" which sticks out like a sore thumb and which deviates from the normal way of demarcation (due to colonialist fait accompli). Remember the Danzig corridor decided by the Versailles Treaty, which had to be resolved? These residues from colonialism are dangerous.

Anyway, the best and fairest solution was either a no go buffer area (no one enters and uses it except maybe to pass through it) or a mixed use area (both contenders use it equally without any implication on sovereignty). This has not happened, thus driving many Thais up the wall with a strong sense of injustice, particularly when the creeping advance was done during Thaksin's era, when his government looked the other way in exchange for certain private advantages related to oil and gas in the Gulf/Thailand near the Cambodia border, so the story goes.

So Veera’s cause is just, to make known to Thais the risk of occupation by fait accompli and to spur the authorities to do something in advance of certain meetings. (find out yourself on this point) His march also has the support of respectable experts, who BTW are not yellow shirts. But the timing I don’t agree with. It was a mistake to do it on that particular day.

2. As for the violence, it was designed by black-ops experts to happen, for political reasons, trying to gain advantage in the balance of power game for the red shirts. Note this is not far fetched, considering the Pataya traffic lights conveniently not working whilst Apisit’s car was there, etc.

Now the red shirts can make hay by smugly pointing that, the yellow shirts are more violent than they were. And Veera has walked straight into this trap. Result? Public relations fiasco for the yellow shirts, nobody cares that what Veera did was in the name of his network, whose name I can’t even remember. That’s the tragedy of it all, because it was a noble effort.

Anyway, the dust settles and information surfaces, people will understand more. And you also have to tie it with the recent rather large budget allocation to the Thai military. You figure it out yourselves what this means.
comment 41
HA_HA date : 23/09/2009 time : 17.29

Hey, be nice na misthepoint.

can't you just argue of give info without accusing me of turn it away from my hero thaksin? geez
comment 40
notdisappointed date : 23/09/2009 time : 14.35


5_5 thanks for the link. All I can see is that the Khmer's think That our land is theirs. That's what the propaganda of Hun Sen has done is to give the impression to his people that the land surrounding Phra Viharn is rightfully Kampuchea's.

Now why would the they think that? Well I guess it's because your hero thaksin let them settle there and build up a community with temple, as well as militarize our land; without so much as a protest. And Noppadon secretly allowed in his Joint Communique that Thailand would allow Phra Viharn as well as the using the illegitimate map showing our land as being Kampuchea.

Well no wonder why the Khmers love to have Thailand as her neighbor; it's because we never get tough with them and never invaded them (in recent history) like Vietnam did.

Good try to try to turn it away from your hero thaksin. This is thaksin's fault and it was made worse by his henchman noppadon with his joint communique.
comment 39
notdisappointed date : 23/09/2009 time : 14.25

At the risk of an argument, it's difficult to second guess or impunge what Veera intentions were. But since he and all Thais have the right to peaceful protest and his intentions were peaceful until confronted by the villagers who misunderstood the rationale behind the protest itself. Therefore in their ignorance they tried to hinder the march.

All I can say is that Veera tried to lessen and avoid any confrontation so he requested the military to ask the villagers to move. Now consider; were the villagers to peacefully move out of the way there would never have been any confrontation.

It was badly mangaged and mishandled by all the parties concerned, not just by Veera himself. I think that perhaps, and I wouldn't out it past them for some politicians to set the stage for a confrontation so as to steal the reds' thunder in Bangkok.
comment 38
HA_HA date : 23/09/2009 time : 13.56

k sardines & misthepoint

this link might have useful information for both of you :

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topic/P8338883/P8338883.html

Me think, Sondhi Lim's goal is to deepen the hate of Thaksin, to destroy him so he summed everything up into one sentence : Thaksin didn't do anything to the encroachment upon the Thai soil with motive. But in fact, there's a long process about this as you can see in the link. It's not true that the Thai authoritiy didn't do anything.

Also the process hasn't finished if it was not cut short my the coup. It was stopped at the point in which Thailand seemed to be at disadvantage. So Thaksin was accused for selling short. As I said before a good relationship between the two countries will lead to the advantage of both.

The problem alone can be solved with diplomatic approach and wouldn't be this serious if there's not hidden motive to destroy Thaksin, me think.
comment 37
SARDINES date : 23/09/2009 time : 13.29

... and if i recall correctly, the other core PAD leaders had originally questioned the means and timing as well by denying that they were involved in organizing this particular event.
comment 36
SARDINES date : 23/09/2009 time : 13.27

ND, 2nd part of your post.

I have never denied the PAD's right to protest the matter. If they are not happy with the government's stance on a matther, they have every right to voice their opinions through "peaceful" protests and stand by their right to do so.

I have not criticized their wanting to protest as it is their every right but I did / do criticize Veera's decision and how he handled the situation which led to the violence (that could have been avoided).
comment 35
SARDINES date : 23/09/2009 time : 13.23

ND C34

yr statement: "Veera, I'm sure, never intended for violence to occur. And I have said on another blog that it's sad that because of veera didn't get the local villagers involved by talking to them before the prootest march."

It is possible that he never intended for violence in the beginning but he was opened to violence when given a choice once he made the statement to the authorities to clear the villagers by 1pm or they would march on with the THREAT to use violence which in the end, did occur.

That's the responsibility a leader could have avoided and therefore, the leader should take responsibility.
comment 34
notdisappointed date : 23/09/2009 time : 12.06


sardine c31, you have lived up to Ian's compliment since you intelligently used a quote that oput a less favorable light on the actuality of the protest in the first place. It wasn't done to create animosity between thais, but to highlight the theft of Thai sovereign soil. the better quote you shuold have focussed on was:

"Then you've got to consider that Veera and his group have the right to walk on any part of Thai territory. And that there are reasons for going up there to make a political statement in advance of certain international meetings."

Veera, I'm sure, never intended for violence to occur. And I have said on another blog that it's sad that because of veera didn't get the local villagers involved by talking to them before the prootest march.

But in your intent to put a less than favorable light on PAD; you failed to address the rationale for their protest in the first place. They protested that the Thai authorities from the days of the thaksin regime allowed the occupation of Thai soil by the Khmers. First with stalls catering to tourist; then to houses; finally to a temple, making Thai soil into a part of Khampuchea. thaksin sat back and did nothing; using the excuse of not wanting to cause an incident with a neighbor, so he let them gradually settle on our land. Therefore he abdicated Thai sovereign soil by his actions.

Stal is intelligent because he doesn't seek to raise up your own brand of 'intelligence'.
comment 33
Ian date : 22/09/2009 time : 11.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

in The discussion between Stal and Sardines we see two intelligent, educated Thais in polite debate. When more Thais learn to do the same there will be hope for this nation.
As a Farang I am happy to sit back and read without comment, this is a Thai problem and needs a Thai solution.
comment 32
SARDINES date : 21/09/2009 time : 23.33

Stalingrad,

by the way, I do enjoy your posts. There is much I do not agree with you, but I respect that you are a gentleman in many of your rebuttals and sincere in your posts.

On a last note to you this evening (getting late), I personally don't feel that the PAD are the UDD's true enemy and vice verse. You might be surprised to one day feel that both sides (in my opinion) share a common foe. The key is to recognizing it. One day we will look back and say, what the hell were we beating each other over the head for and what a waste of so much time and bloodshed.
comment 31
SARDINES date : 21/09/2009 time : 23.28

Stalingrad,

thx for the reply. you've hit it right on the head in saying:

"What I don’t agree with is the timing of the incursion, and K. Veera’s too strong determination to risk his followers’ lives. But I do agree with their right to go up there, indeed it was a move fueled by patriotism."

As a leader, he endangered the lives when he knew quite well the huge possibility for violence. As you said, he could've avoided by protesting another day after explaining the locals (as you menntioned)

in such a confrontation (mob to mob that it turned out to be), there is no way of saying who threw the first punch, rock or bottle. When you put to heated parties of many people up against eachother, that's just irresponsible.

The villagers didn't come to the PAD but the PAD came to the villagers. As you explained, this could have been done another way. Veera was well aware of this and his options but made his threat and intent clear already since 12pm that day. A responsible leader would have looked at other, peaceful options of how to accomplish.

For arguments sake let's agree that his goal was honorable but I have to disagree that his methods were not and he choice the violent confrontational route.

Some foreigners joke about Thais fighting Thais. It's sad but, unfortunately, it has been true for the last few years. What do we do about it?
comment 30
stalingrad date : 21/09/2009 time : 20.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Sardines c.28: If I were Khun Veera I would take full responsibility for what happened, IF the PAD took offensive action.

First, you'd have to determine the facts, and not by just relying on the papers. A court of justice will never rely on the media to ascertain critical facts such as who instigated the violence, and so on, because there is also the issue of self-defense which K. Veera and the guards could claim. If it were a defensive action, that's another matter as the burden of responsibility would be lighter, although you can argue that it was a risky proposition in the first place and that risk should not have been taken.

Then you've got to consider that Veera and his group have the right to walk on any part of Thai territory. And that there are reasons for going up there to make a political statement in advance of certain international meetings.

What I don’t agree with is the timing of the incursion, and K. Veera’s too strong determination to risk his followers’ lives. But I do agree with their right to go up there, indeed it was a move fueled by patriotism.

Think of it. Why do you think they’d get out of bed and take this risky trip? Just to enjoy a bout of violence? It was a political move to show the flag and why this has to be done, you should find out yourself as it’s too long to say here.

You’ve also have to look at those who took potshots and wielded knives at Veera’s group. As I’ve said, we’d have to look at who they were and who some of them were working for. The violence in my view was a designed one, aiming to discredit the PAD and conjure up an image that the PAD was just as violent as the reds, the planners knowing full well that the PAD guards would have to respond in kind. So the reds benefited politically by this incident (I didn’t say they planned it). And it was meant to sucker people who only take a superficial view of things and that covers a lot of people.

All is not as what it seems and I would suggest you defer judgement till the facts come in. But sure K. Veera is partly responsible, for he should have known all of this and chose a more appropriate time, certainly not the 19th. By doing what he did, he alienated a section of the public, and played into the hands of the reds shirts.

But I wouldn't blame it on the PAD as a movement. The PAD is an alliance of many independent minded groups and individuals, and within alliances there are always tension and disagreements.
comment 29
SARDINES date : 21/09/2009 time : 18.46

correction. Sorry, I meant "malice"
comment 28
SARDINES date : 21/09/2009 time : 18.44

hello Stalingrad,

honest question without menace intended. Do you stand by your statement posted in your blog...

"...Legally and morally, the red shirts leaders have to take responsibility if anything happens, and can't simply blame it on the third hand; that would be too convenient. A proper leader has got to proudly say I take all the responsibility for bringing my flock here...."

If yes, then does this also apply to the violence with the PAD in Sri Saket. I hope that you don't say that it is different situation. Violence, is violence and the buck should stop at the leader both Red or Yellow
comment 27
stalingrad date : 21/09/2009 time : 13.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

C.21: correction on my posting there. ICJ decision was in 1962, not 1957.
comment 26
HA_HA date : 21/09/2009 time : 12.40

ND, just a quick answer.. i don't want to waste too much time on this.

Since you're PAD I don't think my thought has any use for you.

"If we didn't have thaksin we'd have a more peaceful Thailand. Why do we need him now?"

Yes, it's logical if you just consider the two sentences. No Thaksin = Peace.

But the fact is Thaksin exists. And people think he is the better leader than AV.

"Yes he did give handouts to the people but that was all. Yes other politicaiands should have done the same; sadly they didn't."

Don't forget, he has smarter ways of hand out too. He taught people to catch fish not just give fish. Think about helping by introducing OTOP and by hand out blankets & canned food. And the most that I admire him is his passion about giving education and children.


For all those fault and mistakes I admit he made many mistakes too. There're trade off in everything. People who don't make mistake are people who do nothing. That why the Democart is the cleanest.


blah blah blah.......

Conclusion : have election and let people choose

ok na. kee giat phud laew. diew pai tee gan tor ti urn laew gan...
comment 25
notdisappointed date : 21/09/2009 time : 11.25


OK, 5_5, I get your point but I don't have to accept thaksin as the banner boy for democary do I? Just because he showed you he was smarter than you doesn't mean that he's smart enough to lead the country in a moral way. He was also smart enough to make Billions; don't forget that.

Yes he did give handouts to the people but that was all. Yes other politicaiands should have done the same; sadly they didn't. But it doesn't prove him to be the upholder of democratic ideals. Just that he was able to spot a winning marketing stategy to get elected.

I have always said that thaksin could have been the best PM in Thailand. He could have but his ego and his character got in the way. He was not self-sacrificing he was selfish.

He became enamored of his majority that he forgot the minority.

He felt so comfortable with his majority that he forgot that he needed to also have morality, integrity, principles, and honesty. Don't forget his human rights abuses; his war on drugs that saw many thousands of innocents killed; his Krue Sae and Tak Bai; his muzzling of the media; his intimidation of his detractors through defamation suits and using AMLO to investigate their finances; his putting his own people in the police and military; his graft and corruption.

Yes we wouldn't be here except for thaksin. But we can move on from here without him. And since he did initiate focus on the plight of the disaffected we don't need him to show the way or to lead us any longer.

If we didn't have thaksin we'd have a more peaceful Thailand.

Why do we need him now?
comment 24
Plaadip date : 21/09/2009 time : 09.40

I think that the villagers are small marchats who are relying on the PV temple to make their living. It's understandable for them to oppose the protest, because all they want is the reopening of the Temple.

We've never seen this type of protest in Cambodian side.(neither in other coutries, I guess, because people usually are more patriatic on territory issues than Thais) This is a big advantage that Hun Sen has to undermine Thai's bargaining points.( He can say that even local people in Thai side oppsoe the Thai's claim on the territory, although the PAD's position is defferent from that of the government.)

If some politicians were actually behind the counter protest organised by "the villagers", we would be able to say that those Thai politicians' role are very instrumental in strengthening the Cambodia's postion on the disputed land.
comment 23
stalingrad date : 20/09/2009 time : 21.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Ian c.12: I do not know the word "weaken", it having been struck off from my vocabularly since I started to read and write on these blogs.

As for me being on the yellow side, wasn't it Aldous Huxley ? who said "Things are not what they seem; or, to be more accurate, they are not only what they seem, but very much else besides."

Have a nice and relieved day, all.
comment 22
HA_HA date : 20/09/2009 time : 21.42

ND, YES I admit without Thaksin everything will be different.

I will not care whether AV, Chuan, Chamlong, Sondhi Lim, Sondhi Boon will be the PM, like i had never interested in politics in the past 10 years before Thaksin. Because they’re all mediocre. I think you too is good enough to be PM if you have that ambition.

There’re 2 reasons I support the RED. First, because Thaksin had shown things I never thought possible before. I accept him as my leader because he had proven he is smarter than me.

Second, because I don’t like what the YELLOW has done with the system, by twisting the truth, manipulation, everything just to get rid of Thaksin. Here, is not about Thaksin. Thaksin is only a factor that reveal the real face of some people.

So how about you, what will your life like without Thaksin? I think probably dull too. Just work hard for salary and wondering why our neighbours are doing better than us. Why Vietnam and Malaysia progress so fast. Why the country export drop or has to borrow money from IMF again. And if Suvannabhumi Airport had not been finished probably still using Donmuang and complain why it’s so crowd.

Anywau, I think you and I probably will not be affected much. It’s the poor, the people in the country that will be affected. Their life probably back to depend on god, whether they will have enough rain for planting, hope the winter will not be so bitter… and wait for free blanket and canned food some good people will hand them. That’s what YOUR PEOPLE want ..jing mai?
comment 21
stalingrad date : 20/09/2009 time : 21.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

nd c.19: Actually, I was going to post on this incident near the Pra Viharn area, which I hope to when I have the time. The issue is so complex and filled with politicking and local conspiracies, that it would take time to unravel the situation, especially for those not knowledgeable about what has been going on there.

But the 1st step is to separate the temple from the 4.5 sq. km. area surrounding it which was not part of the International Court of Justice decision back in 1957. It is Thai territory but over the years the Kampuchians have tried to settle on it, probably like what the Jews did with regards to Palestinian land, and probably with the same motives as the Jews.

From this point on if one is clear on this, the whole PAD march up there falls into place and understandable. But the timing may be a little bit off and is the cause for the howl of protest. A “little bit” meaning there is some sense of urgency in showing the flag, dues to many reasons, but then they should have delayed it a few days for the government to handle the red shirts first. Two front affairs are never good for a government and the public simply can’t handle it, and have gone ballistic over it. K. Veera should have understood that.

The media is not much help, it being rather biased and superficial, especially the Bangkok Post. The big question is who are the “villagers” on the other side? Any Kampuchians mixing in with the crowd? Military intelligence would know this. The crowd’s identity and their motives must be explained. Let's say wait a few days for the temperature to cool and then people will get all, all the facts.
comment 20
notdisappointed date : 20/09/2009 time : 20.12


5_5, without thaksin as the whipping boy, life'd be really dull.

Without thaksin you'd have no hero to look up to.

Without thaksin the disaffected would have no one to lead them - for his own selfish motives.

Without thaksin, maxwell would have nowhere to cry WOLF and nowhere to be a demogogue.

Witthout thaksin, hermione would have to better reason to be idiotic and inane, showing us how free expression, Cuban style works.

Without thaksin, fq would not be able to subtly make insinuations that manipulate the reasonabilities of the unsuspecting readers.

Without thaksin, pj wouldn't have been able to be so forthrightly anti-monarchist.

Without thaksin, br would have to talk to his wife who, like us, doesn't understand a word he's saying. She's like "just show me the money!

Without thaksin, Ean'd not be able to be a neutral observer and lying by omission.

Without thaksin, lurks and catch's humor would be wasted.

All in all we would we all be without thaksin??
comment 19
notdisappointed date : 20/09/2009 time : 19.56


Ean, I don't need a roadmap. I have my on internal GPS. I don't need to be led by the nose listening to maxwell sermons shouted down at us from his perch atop his lemon crate.

Everything has gone according to my roadmap. I follow no one else's. What you don't realize is that I'm just having fun winding you guys up; take for example erik's recent blog. And that hermione has need to bar any comments, with your help, of his many insensible and inane blogs. He uses his Cuban experience for 'free expression' indeed from the staunch upholder of free expression he's great with censorship!!

Oh yeah, with regard to eo's blog - Stal can you point Ean to any information he can bone up on regarding who actually owns the 4.5 sq km that the Khmers have made their own by settling there?

Thanks.
comment 18
HA_HA date : 20/09/2009 time : 14.27

c3, khun lung peacefulness. Do you know the real reason of yesterday downpour? Because it's the RAINY SEASON. I think hail storm at the government house while PAD took over it were more likely the case of Fah-Din Pirote na. That case it's very unlikely to have hail storm in BKK. It's not the season. And it's also limit only in that area. Real l l l l l strange.


c4 ND, you can gather your PAD to commemmorate that if you want. Why not? It's a good way to discredit Thaksin na.

the rest is too long to read... also it's not relevant anymore. so let's move on
comment 17
Plaadip date : 20/09/2009 time : 14.12

I think you turned out to be right. Everything seems to be under control.
comment 16
Plaadip date : 20/09/2009 time : 14.12

I think you turned out to be right. Everything seems to be under control.
comment 15
Hs date : 20/09/2009 time : 14.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Hs

stalingrad : bombs in Bangkok are not the same as bombs in the deep south. Protesters in Bkk do not think of people's lives and livelihood. Don't let the bombs detonate next . We dislike chaos.
comment 14
massein date : 20/09/2009 time : 09.51
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/massein

Mr T ability to have these video uplinks or amazing, althought I often talk to my family on web cam in the USA. time is often limited andthe reception is spotted, but to do it on such a large scale, It requires a strong infracture, I would be willing to bet a Lao Kip that he broacasted from Dubai.
comment 13
massein date : 20/09/2009 time : 09.36
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/massein

I feel that the red shirts were living on borrowed time, however the violence of the yellow shirts, bought the red shirts more time, now i just don't know.
comment 12
Ian date : 20/09/2009 time : 09.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Stal, now that ND has lost his map and joined the yellow "yah, yah" brigade it would seem that you and Krajog are the only two rational bloggers left on the yellow side. please don't weaken, we do need rational debate from both sides.
comment 11
stalingrad date : 20/09/2009 time : 08.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

ND c.10: how do you know that the Dubai authorities have clamped down on him. Are they going to pressure him to leave? Dubai is a strategic location for him, better than the African countries where he has agreements to do diamond and other mining. BTW, wonder if he's seen the movie "Blood Diamond".
comment 10
stalingrad date : 20/09/2009 time : 08.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Also, one big reason why the demonstration ended like this is because the authorities have been meticulously prepared and announced periodically what exactly were they going to do in various scenarios, thereby forming an effective deterrence. The red shirts knew that if they had wanted to do anything more, it would not have gained them anything, on the contrary their cause would be set back years.

By this peaceful rally, they gain many brownie points. They are trying to work their way back to respectability, to atone themselves for last April. They have succeeded to some extent. If they continue on the peaceful route, their movement could gain more supporters.

From the video link, Thaksin looked as if he's resigned to his fate, and from now on is just building bargaining chips. Any big threats issued from him in the next few months are to build up capital for a negotiated settlement with the government rather than a victory. But the government's political advantage now is fragile still, because of the blue shirts holding the balance.

The blue shirt's position if you look at it again, is not that strong and getting weaker. One day the Democrats can ignore them and it will be payback time.
comment 9
stalingrad date : 20/09/2009 time : 08.04
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

where did he do the video link from? Koh Kong? Maybe from Chiang Rai or Koh Chang.
comment 8
peacefulness date : 20/09/2009 time : 07.49
nationmultimedia.com

many redshirts went home after the square face phone-in at 20.37hrs last nite and finally dispersed after midnite without any untoward accident, thank god.

red protesters approx. 20,000 to 25,000 as reported by newspapers and media chnls.
comment 7
notdisappointed date : 20/09/2009 time : 01.02

Stal, the protest turned out to be a wet rag that only about 20,000 showed up from the anticipated 100,000. Just the head-count itself showed that the red movement is stalled with nothing new to say and are now in a decline.

Look at the protest itself. Fair weather protestors with no real idealism. They wanted to do this to do that and at the end of the day listening to the same old rethoric and because Pa Prem wasn't home it became a case of ED. Everyone just waited for the much anticipated thaksin video-link so had to sleep through the garbage-in garbage-out of the red nominees. Afterwards they rushed home. Fair weather protestors with no actually idealism indeed.

What a joke.

And to think that they are saving up for the mother of all protest that will take place during the next ASEAN meeting. They want to discredit AV. Have they not learnt their lessons. And has thaksin not learned that his money is going to waste??

And finally, it's so sad that thaksin's friends in Dubai will no longer allow him to spew lies from the comforts of Dubai. Well maybe it's for the best since he'll be able to see the ex-wife and take treatment for his cancer. Is their no relief for the country that is the 'thaksin cancer'?
comment 6
stalingrad date : 19/09/2009 time : 23.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

Now 11 pm. Nothing unusual happened at the rally. It looks to end peacefully at midnight, but probably some will stay on till morning before returning home. The critical time is between now and dawn, when bombs could be exploded as mentioned by everybody. Then, even if the red shirts don't angrily respond now, it would be raw material for spinning some stories that will stoke the rank and file's anger for future purposes.

There is no real benefit for the red shirts to prolong the rally. It was partly an exercise in checking strength and morale, and the leaders can be heartened to a large extent, because the mood seemed upbeat and determined, despite the heavy rain--unless it was cleverly staged. Unfortunately, I was not free to go and assess first hand today, which I normally do when large demonstrations are held.

So this is a preliminary probe before a decisive engagement in October near the ASEAN summit time, when the balance of forces might be more in favour of the red shirts then. Better to go home and rest. The rainy season conspires against all offensives.

In the Thai psyche, most turning points in politics are seen as occuring in October, where a host of factors converge, like the stars.

Any news on developments?
comment 5
notdisappointed date : 19/09/2009 time : 21.16


It was with a sigh of relief for the nation and her people that the democratic fascist was ousted in a bloodless coup. The day after, the population of the city turned out to thank the soldiers for protecting them from the vile and evil junrai thaksin. A majority in an election does not give one the blank check to rob and steal from the country. Nor does it allow one to be a abuser of human rights.

But his cancer still lingers. This time it must be excised with extreme predjudice. Only then will we know that the scourge of his cancer will never again harm the country.

May he find himself in the lowest level of hell for a thousand lifetimes. And thousands of lifetimes for each succeeding levels.

He and his family unto the seventh generation.

SARTU!
comment 4
notdisappointed date : 19/09/2009 time : 18.29


Why haven't the reds looked for publicity for the 5th year anniversary of the Tak Bai murder of Thai muslims by the thaksin regime, whose anniversary was two days ago.

With he rain storm and the fear of arrest by the leaders of the reds today's demonstration will be just a whimper. What we have to be concerned with is the next planned demonstrations to occur during the forthcoming ASEAN meeting. Then the reds' true animalistic nature will once again surface.
comment 3
peacefulness date : 19/09/2009 time : 16.34
nationmultimedia.com

"fah-din" punish the redshirt stooges again and again with heavy rain and strong wind.......fah din piroje (sky and earth angry)

tum dee dai dee , tum chua dai chua, cha rhue reow.
do good will be rewarded with good, evil with evil, it is only the matter of time.
comment 2
iceberg date : 19/09/2009 time : 12.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ranchhand


Everything will be OK.
comment 1
stalingrad date : 19/09/2009 time : 08.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/stalingrad

People: sorry, I thought Apisit is leaving today or had left. Actually, he's leaving on the 20th. Still, the comments are relevant, whenever he leaves.
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