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reallifethailand

A focus on Thai politics from a long term farang resident and luk keug's father
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/reallifethailand

Posted by redandwhitestripes , Reader : 953 , 22:28:38  
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From The Nation: Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama said Tuesday he would contact Manchester City Football Club to investigate how a Thai national flag bearing the name "Thaksin" was displayed at the club's stadium. This should not be made into something it is not. It's a long standing football tradition for fans to put up flags as banners. Often that will be an English flag (the cross of Saint George) or a Union Jack or the national flag of the player or hero in question. Fans like to express their allegiances. At England games, the fan flags will often have the name of the fan's local team written across the middle. This is particularly popular with supporters of smaller teams. Otherwise the name of the team's star player will be written across the flag. Sometime fans go further with their merchandise. For example, during the nineties when Uwe Rosler was a star striker at Manchester City, City fans had T-shirts bearing the slogan: "Uwe's grandparents bombed Old Trafford". The three banded Thai flag (nation, religion, King) would surely not be intentionally disrespected by City fans and surely expatriate Thais would be well aware of the consequences of such an action. It pains me to say it, but I think Noppadon is correct in saying this is the actions of westerners who simply did not realise there was a big cultural issue at stake. I predict we will see an apology from the club and the fans in question soon.

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comment 28 catch22 date : 13/05/2008 time : 11.54 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

I wish some countries would treat their underprivileged citizens with the same reverence they do the flag. Its a piece of material for heaven's sake!!

comment 27 Poomjai date : 05/05/2008 time : 03.37 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

RWS, Slightly off topic but i know you will appreciate it. I was in the Itchen Stand today. Full house. Sheffield go ahead. Saganowski and Stern John put us ahead. Sheffield level. Stern John cracks another in then gets sent off. 10 nervous minutes with only ten men. Whistle blows. Pitch invasion. Monunmental. Come on you Saints!

comment 26 DKO date : 02/05/2008 time : 08.46 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

C20, :) Hi Greg I agree with your comments and supposition. I did write my original comments for Thais to understand the cultural difference of the UK regarding Flags etc. and I did state worse case scenario examples rather than what I believe (and hope) will happen. I think we Brits can be very stubborn just like Thais when another Nation is inadvertently heavy handed in how it tells us what we should or should not do in our own Country. That was what I was trying "possibly over the top" to suggest (maybe petty retaliation by a few) I feel IMHO that the City fan(s) responsible are much more likely to respect Thailand's wishes if asked to cease, rather a match programme and stadium speaker denouncement and told Thailand (and/or Thaksin) do not like it and demand the flag not to be used in future. I also agree 100% with your pride in our country and Flag and don't like to see either attacked unreasonably. I think we as a Nation are used to seeing our Flag burned and insulted and we take a passive attitude to avoid confrontations when there are much more serious (in our culture) matters to deal with/confront. I also think we as a Nation look more at INTENT. For example if Chelsea, Man U or whoever are written across the Union Jack Flag or English George Flag and displayed at matches, it is intended as pride in ones team and that it's British. No malicious or disrespect intended so none taken by the vast majority of Brits. Countries such as Thailand are much more sensitive and see any adjustments to its Flag as disrespectful. I do not criticize this attitude it is just a cultural difference and each should be respected whenever possible. Not sure if a name on a Thai Flag would anywhere near be regarded as racist by British Law but I definitely agree with you its best it is not repeated as it is clear it offends the Thai people. I feel certain that was not the intention of the City fans displaying the Thai flag with Thaksins name on it. We do not wish to upset other Nations by disrespecting their cultural differences, especially when we are made aware of them as that would be just plain rude.

comment 25 redandwhitestripes date : 02/05/2008 time : 07.57 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/reallifethailand

I see one Democrat MP is still pushing this: "Nowhere in England can you buy big Thai flags, I studied there for years". Not true, it's not difficult to get hold of a Thai flag in the UK.

comment 24 Poomjai date : 02/05/2008 time : 03.53 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

MakubeX, Da. Although having been to Moscow it comes as no surprise that few people feel endeared by Russia or Russians. Thai people and Thailand are much more endearing to us Brits na khrap!

comment 23 veen date : 01/05/2008 time : 22.47 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/veen

MakubeX, you've got me thinking..... Yes, "Abramovich" and Russian flag should have been at S-bridge too now that his money has taken Chelski to Moscow.

comment 22 MakubeX date : 01/05/2008 time : 21.20 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Ian (the younger), even so I don't recall Chelsea fans waving the Russian flag with "Abramovich" or "Dobro pozhalovat' Abramovich" emblazoned on it. Perhaps the Man City and Chelsea fans are on different intellectual levels?

comment 21 Poomjai date : 01/05/2008 time : 20.57 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

MakubeX, I agree with your suggested approach in para 2 which makes sense. Your final para - I think you are taking too Thai a perspective on this, to be honest. Let's remember that Man City's most famous fan's are those intellectually heavyweight brothers from the Pop Group Oasis. I would be very surprised if the person who did this gave it a second thought. He or she was probably, in the new cupboard love for a foreign owner bringing millions to the club, showing allegiance. Whether Thaksin's name deserves to be there is immaterial. Most Mancunians probably couldn't care less about the political situation in Thailand. But many will love their new owner and make a positive association with Thailand. It doesn't have to make sense. Hey, anyone who can wear Union Jack skids must be missing some loose change somewhere. But it doesn't stop them doing something which in their mind express their pride and passion for their country.

comment 20 redandwhitestripes date : 01/05/2008 time : 19.28 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/reallifethailand

Ian snr, I agree that we don't take the flag as seriously as the Thais do, but I think there is still some pride. Haven't you ever seen some idiot burning our flag and wished he was in punching distance? I do think the Man City fans will be apologetic because although they are struggling now, they still love Thaksin for the money he has bought into the club. If he gently says: "Thank you for your tribute but let me explain something about Thai culture........" I'm sure City fans will never do this again. DKO, I think I understand you a little better now but I still think a little focus has been lost because we are looking at the event from the Thai side. I'm not sure how seriously the UK side is taking it. I really don't think Man Utd fans or anyone else will repeat this stunt because it falls too closely to the ultimate taboo of racism, certainly the FA would play it that way and then any club will go to great lengths to stop it happening. Hopefully things will be sorted by a quick apology anyway and will go no further. I'm no Thaksin fan but I do feel this has been "blown up" by some parties as political point scoring.

comment 19 MakubeX date : 01/05/2008 time : 18.50 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Ian (the older), I imagine that there would be outrage hence there is little or no production and purchase of such goods among Thais in general. Whether this is right or wrong or not is not for us to decide but for Thai society to do so. Ian (the younger), another way to deal with it is for the Thai side to acknowledge that while there was a contravention of law (although I prefer to call it etiquette), but at the same time the contravention occurred outside Thai jurisdiction, and thus nothing can be done about it. On the English side, if they're so keen to pay tribute to "Frank" in the future, then stick to sticking his name on the Man City flags and leave other people's flags alone. To be honest, I don't really see the point of having the Thai flag there in the first place. Thaksin is hardly the finest product of Thailand and the notion of paying respect to Thailand through such a divisive figure can only end in tears.

comment 18 Ian date : 01/05/2008 time : 18.14 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Makube, what would the Thai reaction be if their saw their flag displayed this way? http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2635440.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=B43C13524355E928D9B39BF1E416F296A55A1E4F32AD3138 or this way http://www.frenchtruckers.com/img/underground-union-jack-sneakers.jpg or like this http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/f0/GeriUnionJack.jpg Or this http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Images/DB_Detail/_7144_1_.jpg

comment 17 Poomjai date : 01/05/2008 time : 17.32 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

MakubeX, In reality, I sense that Democrat politicians and other anti-Thaksin figures are trying to play politics simply because Thaksin is involved. Many in the Thai polity stick to attacking the individual (in particular Thaksin) rather than attacking ideas or stand-points. This is one of the reasons that the Democrats haven't been elected in recent history. Because they have no ideas and no policy platform. While there may be a technical contravention of Thai law in the individual acts of a British supporter amending a Thai flag, I wonder whether a more profitable avenue might be for some people to recognise that in fact, British people were trying (in however a misdirected way) to actually pay respect to Thailand through the gesture. Suggesting that Thaksin should be investigated by the Police for the acts of someone else is frankly laughable and ludicrous. I wonder if the same storm would have been whipped up had the name on the flag been Paradon or some other Thai sporting star at a separate event?

comment 16 MakubeX date : 01/05/2008 time : 17.13 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Sorry, comment 14's on the wrong blog...I'll repost in the proper blog! Please delete as you see fit.

comment 15 MakubeX date : 01/05/2008 time : 17.00 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

"A slightly different viewpoint, ardent Thai nationalists say Farangs should not complain in Thailand but accept Thai culture. OK so in England accept English culture, in England you can do what you like with a flag, any flag." Ian, that would be true if the complaints were being made by "ardent Thai nationalists" in England and the incident is confined within those borders. The problem is the incident is causing problems in Thailand and, unless cooler heads prevail, it looks like it's becoming more than just an English matter.

comment 14 MakubeX date : 01/05/2008 time : 16.56 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

The Royal anthem was the national anthem of Thailand before the 1932 coup when it was replaced by a different version of the modern day national anthem. Today it's mainly used on state occasions, occasions where royalty is present, and before concerts and performances. I've hardly seen it being played on TV though; unless they were broadcasting one of these events. On the other hand, the "traditions" of the modern national anthem was established by the (nutty - even considering the standards of Thai politics) constitutional/military dictatorship in the 1940s that had a rather rocky relationship with the monarchy along with laws as to when it's to be played (at 0800 and 1800 in public places, on TV, and radio and that people must stand to attention no matter how impractical it was...there's a famous picture of a cop and a schoolkid knee-deep in flood water saluting the flag). Presumably, the heavy-handed way this anthem was introduced as well as its over-exposure has led to the apathy it's greeted with in most quarters today. As I recall, a few months' back, a nutty general (now safely confined with the Men in White of Sritanya mental asylum) proposed that cars and everything should stop at 0800 and 1800 every day for the national anthem. The proposal was quickly shot down by his colleagues and members of the public. It's different for the royal anthem though since it's more deeply rooted in "tradition" and the monarchy has managed to remain vaguely respectable, especially in comparison with the politicians and nutty dictators that have constantly besmirched the nation with their 76 years of muppetry. Personally, if there're going to be changes in this area, I'd prefer them to be natural (much like what's happened with the national anthem since the 1940s) rather than unnatural, i.e. forced through by some naive hotheads with an axe to grind.

comment 13 DKO date : 01/05/2008 time : 14.54 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

:) Hi Greg (hope OK to use your name, as Ian has), Yes I agree with you that the UK press is not likely to take much interest, UNLESS there is such an uproar from Thailand's authorities then there just might be a reaction be it probably small. Not sure of the FA's powers of enforcement to the degree you suggest. Certainly I agree that one would hope that nobody in the UK would purposely choose to offend Thailand or its people once UK people are aware of Thailand's sensitivities. Not sure about you hopes on club rivalry though. I know that with Leeds United (my club for my pains) and Man U for instance more than a few fans did some loathsome and shameful acts of disrespect to each other in the past just to score a few points against each other - VERY SAD

comment 12 Ian date : 01/05/2008 time : 11.38 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Greg, I don't feel DKO is losing focus if the comment is directed at a Thai audience. We Brits do not take our flag or any others national symbol seriously, we see moslems constantly burning our flags, no one gets upset at such childish acts. Americans take their flag more seriously than we do, Thais take it to an extreme that would leave the average Brit amazed. He would probably say, "For God's sake man, it's just a piece of cloth". A slightly different viewpoint, ardent Thai nationalists say Farangs should not complain in Thailand but accept Thai culture. OK so in England accept English culture, in England you can do what you like with a flag, any flag.

comment 11 redandwhitestripes date : 01/05/2008 time : 11.21 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/reallifethailand

DKO I think you may be losing focus a little. I'll be surprised if this has received more than a tiny amount of media attention in the UK since, as you say, the Brits won't be aware of the offence caused in the first place. I really don't think it will come to the point where Utd fans will do it on purpose and if they did, the FA would step in quickly as they know the problems it would cause with Anglo - Thai relations.

comment 10 DKO date : 01/05/2008 time : 07.59 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Veen (C9), Maybe they are hoping his billions will be unfrozen and he will buy many new players. Don't forget Man City were in great need of serious investment when Thaksin came along so he will still be quite popular. With bad results they blame the manager (and he has now been sacked). With not buying new players they blame the owner and directors. Regarding the Flag issue. I fully understand how the Thais feel about the issue but such concerns for a National Flag are alien to most Brits. People do much, much worse with ours and we still feel secure and proud enough not let it worry us. Brits consider themselves to be free to express their opinions. Names on flags (such as our Union Jack) are part of British football and also common place in many countries of the World. I believe a formal government outrage and complaint may make matters worse. IMHO it would have been best for Thaksin to QUIETLY explain in the club's media about the offence it causes him and Thais who see it and to ask for the fans understanding and to desist. Now, after all the high level publicity I feel with football club rivalries, especially between Man U. and Man C. you may even see Man U supporters with Thai flags and names on them JUST TO WIND UP CITY FANS (its the nature of football rivalry around the World (especially between local teams) - part of the fun. The Thai government expressing outrage and demanding investigations will only wind up many UK people up or give them a laugh, which is not the result Thailand seeks. If the UK newspapers get involved and decide it is "over the top" you may see many more in reaction. It should not be forgotten that in the UK we are very tolerant with matters such as these. a Thai or anybody could write all over the UK flag, tear it up, be vulgar about the Queen and the Monarchy and NOTHING would happen to him. People all over the World (including Thais) walk around in British Union Jack clothing (even on their socks and underwear at times ). The Brits accept this in good humour and with our cultural outlook we just do not feel degraded, threatened or disrespected by such things. Veen. You wonder (with Man City's results going downhill) why are the fans so keen to recognize Thaksin. Maybe if they were mad with at him they would show more Thai flags with his name on them "just to piss him off".

comment 9 veen date : 30/04/2008 time : 23.07 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/veen

Taking away the cultural and legal issues, I can't find a reason why City fans should show any support or respect to the former PM at this time when City is heading down the table. I rarely see supporters praising the club's owner in the Prem but who knows? I could be wrong, Mr Frank may be really charming to the fans. Just my 50 cents.

comment 8 MakubeX date : 30/04/2008 time : 22.46 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

The US does have a "Flag Code" (Title 4, Chapter 1 of the United States code), which coincidentally has a prohibition in section 8 stating that "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature." Curiously, in Denmark under section 110 (e) of their penal code, it's illegal to desecrate the flags or national symbols of foreign nations...but the burning of the Danish national flag is legal. Other "healthy" countries like Germany, Finland, and yes, New Zealand (the 1981 Flags, Emblems and Names Protection Act) have laws that make various sorts of flag desecration a crime. The legal definitions vary, but people have gone to court before for these "crimes." As for the City fans, considering what's been going on between Sven and "Frank" in the last couple of days, I think it's unlikely that they'll want to display that flag again any time soon...some people might say that it jinxed the Fulham game!

comment 7 redandwhitestripes date : 30/04/2008 time : 22.17 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/reallifethailand

Vertigo, if you are serious :-) I'd say given that the Thais look at the body from the head downwards in ranking in purity, it could be a little risky.

comment 6 VERTIGO date : 30/04/2008 time : 21.37

Just a question really, I am thinking of having a tattoo on my leg incorperating the union jack and the thai flag, with united together written underneath. Do i risk arrest

comment 5 FelixQui date : 30/04/2008 time : 14.06 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/FelixQui

In healthy nations, respect is shown the flag because it is deserved, not because any laws force citizens to cower respectfuly before it. The US flag does not need such unnatural protection because the US is not a pathetic nation where a show of respect has to be forced, and most Americans truly respect their flag. The same for New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc. Why does Thailand NEED laws to enforce a show of respect for its flag? The existence of such laws suggests that there is something seriously wrong somewhere.

comment 4 Ian date : 30/04/2008 time : 11.36 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I hope that Thailand will not turn itself into another joke again. Thailand must accept that 60 million people cannot dictate the culture of the rest of the world. As several have said the flag was shown to show both support and respect, if Thailand sees this otherwise then it is Thailand which has the problem not the rest of the world.

comment 3 wch date : 30/04/2008 time : 08.39

Today, Nopadool is almighty naknarok. " All ambassadors must announce all the world, that THAILAND has NEW Constitution" All world is now freezen !.

comment 2 LLCoolM date : 30/04/2008 time : 04.44 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/LLCoolM

I think thats normal like RWS said and it happend every weekend in every country with every flag. I dont think they need to think about any disrespect it is just fun. I could turn it around and blame everybody who wear the sawastika as sticker, on Shirt etc. in Thailand. But I dont. Even if it would be against the law (with prison time) in germany. I guess that would be a full time job for nothing lol

comment 1 Poomjai date : 29/04/2008 time : 23.59 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

RWS, I agree with you completely. This is merely a very English way for some Man City fans to express respect for the Thai owner of their club and for Thailand in general. English people may not understand Thai law on use of the flag but I am quite positive that no disrespect was intended, quite the opposite.

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