reallifethailand

A focus on Thai politics from a long term farang resident and luk keug's father
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Saturday , March 29 , 2008

Gert Wilders and the Fitna controversy

Posted by redandwhitestripes , Reader : 809 , 21:36:41

Geert Wilder's movie 'Fitna' has already been removed from the UK site, Livelink. It was no surprise to me whatsoever that Livelink stated they had received 'clear threats' that they must remove the movie. For those who don't know, Geert Wilders is a Dutch politician who spends his entire life under armed guard for protection from the many death threats he has received. He is a critic of Islamic culture and immigration into Holland. I will not post a direct link to the movie itself as it contains very disturbing scenes (accompanied by beautiful music) but it can be found on youtube. It is graphic, shocking and chilling but it is nothing new. Wilders cleverly avoids inserting his own opinions, instead there are quotes from the Koran and footage of various terrorists events. The debate is already on. The uninformed apologists and Tomfins of this world are, as usual, stating "The verses are out of context" , "You can find verses like this in The Bible" , "Wilders is an Islamaphobe" etc. These defences are all wrong and uninformed, usually coming from people with no true knowledge of the Koran. If people disagree with the movie or Geert's intentions, why don't they do so with reason and explanations? Of course there are many, many good Muslim people. I have Muslim friends, but they do not follow the Koran literally. It is impossible to do that and be a good citizen outside of a country under Sharia law. I recently got an email direct from Geert thanking me for my support. I'm proud of that. I'm also grateful that people have the courage to speak out about a problem that we cannot hide from. We need Muslim moderates, and people of all nationalities and cultures to face up to the issue of our own horrific mistakes in Iraq and the continued threat of Islamic terrorism. The deafening silence of moderates and the rapid removal of the video from Livelink tells us how far we have to go.

Geert Wilder's movie 'Fitna' has already been removed from the UK site, Livelink. It was no surprise to me whatsoever that Livelink stated they had received 'clear threats' that they must remove the movie.

For those who don't know, Geert Wilders is a Dutch politician who spends his entire life under armed guard for protection from the many death threats he has received. He is a critic of Islamic culture and immigration into Holland.

I will not post a direct link to the movie itself as it contains very disturbing scenes (accompanied by beautiful music) but it can be found on youtube. It is graphic, shocking and chilling but it is nothing new. Wilders cleverly avoids inserting his own opinions, instead there are quotes from the Koran and footage of various terrorists events.

The debate is already on. The uninformed apologists and Tomfins of this world are, as usual, stating "The verses are out of context" , "You can find verses like this in The Bible" , "Wilders is an Islamaphobe" etc. These defences are all wrong and uninformed, usually coming from people with no true knowledge of the Koran. If people disagree with the movie or Geert's intentions, why don't they do so with reason and explanations?

Of course there are many, many good Muslim people. I have Muslim friends, but they do not follow the Koran literally. It is impossible to do that and be a good citizen outside of a country under Sharia law.

I recently got an email direct from Geert thanking me for my support. I'm proud of that. I'm also grateful that people have the courage to speak out about a problem that we cannot hide from. We need Muslim moderates, and people of all nationalities and cultures to face up to the issue of our own horrific mistakes in Iraq and the continued threat of Islamic terrorism. The deafening silence of moderates and the rapid removal of the video from
Livelink tells us how far we have to go.

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comment 8
Obeyno1kinobe date : 01/04/2008 time : 10.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/obeyno1

Suggest the govts positions are just damage control to try and minimise negative trade fallout and rioting etc.

Have the govt prosecuted him for hate crimes in relation to this video. That would surprise me.

Life was brutal and short when these old books were written (and still is in some places).
People were tribal and superstitious (and some still are).
Human knowledge was 5% what it is today.
I imagine the dark of night was a powerful and terrifying reality.
To follow any 1,500, 2,000, 2,500, 6,000 year old belief system literally invites problems.

By all means follow the golden rule of the axial age, but beware the mindset of primitive and medieval times.

comment 7
narcisuss date : 31/03/2008 time : 15.30
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/narcisuss
I come in peace :)

ob1, yes of course some people will be offended by offensive videos..
What I meant was, no head of state, government or business would even bother to comment if this wasn't islam.
With this video it seems that every nation in the EU has 'condemned' it according to the news agencies.

comment 6
Obeyno1kinobe date : 31/03/2008 time : 12.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/obeyno1

Faith is sometimes defined as believing in something without logical proof.

It is hard to prove invisible beings, creation myths, and religious interpretions of the cosmos and what happens after we die.

And to me, it seems absurd with so many different belief systems, and the possibility of only one (or none) of them being literally correct, so many people think they have the absolute truth.

I've read nearly all the bible, and some of the Koran, as well as lots of other stuff. The bible starts of with a creation myth, and then a pseudo history of the Hebrew tribes who worshiped a tribal god (and were naughty sometimes continuing to worship others). Family trees. Rules, written by many authors etc etc. It's all over the place.

And this is supposed to be God's instruction manual.

If you can see your way through the dross in the old testement, one key take away is "what is hateful to you, don't do to others", the rest, and I'm being generous, is commentary.

Religion must have an amazing hold on people, given a lot of people smarter and wiser than us, still believe.

comment 5
Ian date : 30/03/2008 time : 17.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

A deep religious conviction must involve a suspension of logic. Once that first step has been taken then many other possibilities open up, unreason can become reason, the illogical becomes logical.

comment 4
Obeyno1kinobe date : 30/03/2008 time : 17.15
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/obeyno1

I think we'll get mainly westerners commenting on this given other cultures tendancies to avoid any critique or open disscusion on religion.

I agree with every point you make Felix.

Unfortunately, the religious meme is very powerful. Especially when you are indoctrinated as a child. Or it is as a large part of your cultural and social identity. Like Jewish traditions and Muslims going to the Mosque. Religion is like a cultural virus you pick up fromm your parents and society, like the language we speak.

Also, the big questions around the meaning of life, where we came from, what happens when we die remain.

So religion is hard to shake, and some people don't want to, even intelligent people. Which is their choice.

Narc, there are Christians who might take offence especially in the US, which is frighteningly religious compared to West Europe. Abortian practicianer do get murdered by religious individuals. But you are right, the Pope these days and Catholics do take a strong stance on some issues, but don't issue Fatwahs. The inquisition has been cancelled.

Islam differs in that it hasn't had a reformation. While it was relatively liberal at the time of it's conception, the societies where it flourished have not moved (what will call) forward as much, and remain somewhat medieval. Beheadings. Multiple wives.

I don't know about Mr Wilder's motivations. What is he hoping to achieve. He obviously understands the risks so is either foolish or brave.

This kind of thing just tends to entrench people in their positions. But I wouldn't want Sharia law having any formal status in the countries I hold citizenship. And immigration of religious fundamentalists does create tensions. Not sure what the solution is.

comment 3
narcisuss date : 30/03/2008 time : 16.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/narcisuss
I come in peace :)

It is a sign of unhealthiness that the world reacts so strongly to an opinion.

If anyone posted a similar critic of Catholicism on the internet would the world even blink? I think the reactions are symptoms of the tension created by self censorship and fear.

As Greg, I do not support the persecution of muslims (and I guess that's what some people are afraid of), but if someone has an opinion it's just that, an opinion.
Opinions can be discussed and discredited if wrong.

comment 2
Ian date : 30/03/2008 time : 13.37
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I will take Felix's comment one step further, I do not believe it is possible to be a fundamentalist follower of any of the Abrahamic religions and be an intelligent person. I think this is also mostly true of Hinduism and to a lesser degree Buddhism.

comment 1
FelixQui date : 30/03/2008 time : 02.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/FelixQui

And things are not much better here in Thailand, where any mockery of Buddhism, or accidental disrespect, is also rigorously punished and suppressed.
I thought the video was pretty tame really - a rehash of what's been done before, but it's the sort of thing that should be done: religion does not deserve respect simply because it happens to be religion; that an opinion or speech deeply offends people, even a large majority, is not good grounds for banning it.
I think RWS is right to say that it is impossible to be a good person person and to take the Koran literally, just as it is impossible to be a morally decent or rational person and take the Bible literally.
I'm not sure that I think Geert's motives were entirely wonderful, but he should still be allowed to peacefully express his opinion, which should be judged on its own merits, not the author's motives.

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