• Poomjai
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FRT - Farang Rak Thai
Humdrum musings on life in Thailand
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai
Monday , February 11 , 2008
Do farangs try to understand Thai culture and customs?
Posted by Poomjai , Reader : 1769 , 01:19:07  
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It being the period of Chinese New Year, I watched an entertaining program on the telly today about a popular English celebrity’s travels round China. During my 5 years living in Thailand I never had an opportunity to visit China and I wish that I had. But watching this program I was captivated by how very different it was to my own British experience and yearned to understand it more. Indeed the scene of people taking communal exercise in a Beijing park reminded me of mornings jogging around Lumpini and watching the many groups enjoying tai chi or aerobics.

I come from a background of belief that travel is an opportunity to learn about and understand new and different things in foreign lands. The fact of difference is interesting, exciting and in many cases beautiful. It doesn’t change my personal attachment to Britishness to embrace aspects of a different culture and language when I am far from home. And in any case I start from an understanding that no country, my own included, is perfect. So picking holes in foreign ways can tend in my view to be rather narrow minded and jingoistic. Johnny foreigner and all that.

But I found the style and tone of the commentary on this particular TV show grating, truth be told. The celebrity seemed intent on accentuating the alien otherness of China. Cringing flamboyantly when presented with a donkey’s penis at dinner or trying jokingly to get Chinese people to answer indiscrete questions at a Communist commune. And I must admit that it reminded me of the way that many westerners act in Thailand. So it makes me ask, do farangs try to understand Thai and Asian custom and culture?

I hear my fellow countrymen bemoan the unwillingness of immigrants to assimilate and adapt to British ways. But do we British try to adapt when we are abroad? Or do we, like folk from western allied countries, simply compare and contrast through our supposedly first world reference point, judge other countries accordingly and try to change them to fit our putatively perfect model?

Some of the comments that I hear and read from foreigners - who claim to have lived in Thailand for several years - highlights this point nicely.

“Your system isn’t democratic.” “Thai people bury their heads in the sand and ignore the real problems facing their country.” “I can’t get on with the Thai language - it just sounds like white noise.” “Thais are so corrupt and don’t like us foreigners.” “Thai journalists are stupid and don‘t ask intelligent questions.” “Why do traditional Thai girls have to ask family’s permission to have a boyfriend?” “Got any fish and chips? Can’t eat the local muck.” “What’s wrong with healthy debate and criticising people openly if they are wrong?” “Thai workers are lazy.” “Why can’t we talk about the future of the monarchy?”

And when I hear many comments like this I think “do they really get it?“. I will not try to claim that Thailand is perfect and I would be less likely to claim that China is, but then I wouldn‘t claim the UK is either.

The difference is that in my own country I have a democratic right to try to change things in an active way expressing my views stridently as is my right as a British man. A foreigner living in Thailand can hope at best to try to influence things with which they don’t agree, either by voting with their feet or by getting to know the country and people well enough to be in a position to have their quiet voices heard. And in the process of understanding the country better they might well learn some aspects of the local experience and practice which they could usefully apply back at home.


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comment 71
prot date : 05/04/2008 time : 09.59

We are a couple that luckily travel around the world to work and document different cultures.
We left Europe for Thailand with the enthusiastic idea of going in the “land of the smile” but after nearly four months we now left that country with the impression that it was only a facial paralysis.

During our trip we had the opportunity to know people from different social status and we are impressed by the general low cultural level. We have also the impression that to be open minded in Thailand regards only the sexual sphere because of the huge amount of kàthoey all around.

One more impressive thing is that Thai people speak a sort of strange “Thai-English”; speaking about it with other farangs we all agree: Thai speak the worst English of all Asia.
English is not our mother tongue too, but we never had problems to speak and let us understand all over the world.
Shocked by the terrible pronunciation of Thai people, we asked many Thai professionals, such as doctors, lawyers, designers – and extraordinary thing: tourist officers – to know where they did learn English. They answered that they learnt it at school, taught by Thai teachers. In the rest of the world schools assume mother tongue teachers to teach foreign languages. Just to make an example, we went twice to East Timor: they speak English much better than in Thailand, and Timorese are less lucky, less rich and they have less opportunity to learn and to travel than Thai people. Think about it.

When you talk about Thai culture, what do you mean? We didn’t see any valuable cultural sign all over the country: museums are not a lot and very poor, nobody is interested in maintaining the ancient architectonical and cultural knowledge and monuments, it doesn’t exist any (exported) writer, intellectual, painter, sculptor, architect, film maker.
The only thing that interest Thais are Gucci, Versace, Armani, Louis Vuitton. Even when they travel around the world, they only make shopping tours and are not interested at all in the Coliseum, in the Uffizi Museum, in the Tour Eiffel, in the culture and in the farang’s world.

In Chiang Mai and talked with an Italian Restaurant manager that lives there since 30 years. He was very proud to have taught the European cuisine to some Thai cooks but he told us that when you teach something you have to pay the greatest attention on the words you choose (and this manager speaks Thai in a perfect way), because Thais are unable to elaborate in their own mind a creative cuisine like the European one. He told us he had to explain every little element like to children. For instance, if on the menu you have the Spaghetti with a Tomato sauce and the Penne with a pesto sauce and a guest asks for some Penne with tomato sauce, they wouldn’t be able to deal with his request. Does it exist any creative Thai person? We didn’t found out it.

Talking about their manner and behaviour, Thais are gross, liar and very very ill mannered; even if they walk around dressed in yellow, pink and light blue, they don’t truly pay respect to the King and the Royal Family. You just have to enter a cinema to notice it: at the hymn they stand up but we observed that there is always someone that talks, that is on the phone, that eats; the only ones that listen to the hymn in silence are farangs.
Since generations the Royal family tried to educate its people to an open minded mentality, to a cultural environment, to an intellectual surrounding, but the people seems not to have understood it.

The quantity of lies that we had to deal with during our trip is enough for our entire life: Thai lies for every little thing, they are unable to tell how things really are, and don’t tell us that it’s because they are timid and they don’t know how to say “no”. When they lie and they are discovered, they always say that’s because they have a different culture. But to have a different culture doesn’t mean to hide behind such behaviours. It’s just a question of being ill mannered and liar, and this makes so many damages, to farangs and to Thai people as well, because it makes farangs not believe to them anymore. The only “intellectual” and physical effort that Thai people do to truly maintain their own culture is the good choice of an amulet, and they live surrounded by them, so that they don’t have to face their real life.
comment 70
Poomjai date : 24/02/2008 time : 03.26
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

wantmyrenminbi,

I was under the impression that there was a T town in Los Angeles? And also a significant and growing Thai community in the UK, judging by the popularity of Thai food here and the number of Thai restaurants staffed by Thai people.

Can't judge for other countries though, although I believe that there are significant communities of Thai people in many European countries as well.
comment 69
wantmy$ date : 24/02/2008 time : 01.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/future

Thailand always operate in the opposite moon, so its understandable that beside farangs, anyone from outside this kingdom and its surrounding will always have difficulty fiting in much less trying to understand thai. China has much older civilisation and despite its communist status, it can easily get back on its feet and join the rest of the world. As you can see its advancing much faster than some asian countries, one of the reasons why they are able to pick up fast is because they still have millions of overseas chinese who are more than willing to help their ancestral land. Its because of hardship that they left China in search of prosperity in foreign land but they have not forgotton where they came from so they create this little chinatown all over the world. You can Chinatown in almost every major world cities but you dont find Thai town except Singapore. So try not to wreck your brain trying to assimilate into Thai society, just enjoy what they can offer.
comment 68
Lalida date : 22/02/2008 time : 17.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ian,

Learn to read Thai if you want to know and will help you understand Thai more, and when you do I think that grudge between you and I will be over
comment 67
Ian date : 22/02/2008 time : 16.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, so you agree they are different, but my question was in what way are they different?
comment 66
Lalida date : 22/02/2008 time : 15.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ian,

If you try to learn a bit of Thai or read a bit of it, Then you'll probably wouldn't be in this Blog but in Pantip.com, snook or OK Nation. Even you don't join them, you'll see how different between Falang blogs and Thai blogs. The reason I'm here in this blog is because I want to see what Falang writes and their perspective over different issues. If I wanted to be in a Thai Blog, I rather have a nice cup of coffee or a bootle of barcardi and discuss different subject face to face with my Thai friends, so I can slap him/her once in a while.......
comment 65
Ian date : 22/02/2008 time : 09.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Ian (poomjai), a related topic is one's attitude to control, do we mind if a blog goes off topic or do we try to keep it on topic. I have noticed that blogs rarely manage to stay on topic after the first 30 or so comments, this one is a typical example. So one could argue that comments are detrimental to a blog:-)
Is a blog a university debate or a pub debate?
Is it a closed debate between a few or an open debate, are hecklers allowed? :-)
Now I have gone well off topic, so perhaps I can return by asking Lalida and other Thais, are there any culturally obvious differences between the way Thai bloggers blog, as say in OK nation or Sanook, and the way we Farangs blog here?
comment 64
Poomjai date : 22/02/2008 time : 03.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Ian,

It is an interesting point but, I think, an academic one. You are right that there is only a small pool of blogger who regularly interact, debate and discuss blogs. And we have tried unsuccessfully to persuade more people to join in.

But still. People clig onto the blog page to read the blogs. Now, we have no way of knowing how much of each blog that they read, whether a sentence or the whole piece. It could well be that the blogs with lower hits get more proper readers than some with a high number of hits.

For me I am glad if people click onto my blogs and don't get hung up too much on how much they have read, what they think or whether they are going to comment.

Being the internet, it is in some ways unique in offering instant feedback. Print media operates on a much slower feedback loop and yet they continue to print.

We all know that most people read only a fraction of any newspaper that they pick up. If this is the case with our blogs then so be it. It is enough that people were interested enough to click on and have a look see, in my opinion.
comment 63
Lalida date : 21/02/2008 time : 17.09
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

True Ian, but there's another version of silence, if you're talking about class. In the East, they can only speak when they are ask to raise their hands, they cannot question the teachers opinion, that's respect out of fear.

Another version is, silence can be golden, means accepting, acknowledgment, avoiding, absorbing, analyze etc, etc. They feel you don't have to know what they see nor do they see any point in debating. Look at Greg, he's reading I'm sure but he decided to keep it in silence agreemnet and disagreement.
comment 62
Ian date : 21/02/2008 time : 09.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, I am a teacher, I think like a teacher. If I teach a class of 40 pupils and they sit silent all through my lesson I do not know if they are interested or not. If the pupils ask questions or make comments then I know they are interested.
A "view" is just that, a view, the reaction of that viewer may be boredom or anger or agreement, but without a comment one will never know, so to me views are unimportant, only those who comment matter.
comment 61
Lalida date : 20/02/2008 time : 23.09
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Well Ian, If base on your own persepective, who can argue with you, being an old timer in this blog site of course you have your own opinion towards it.

As a mid timer, I don't forget the readers. They are the only reasons that I write, I don't act when I write. I write what I feel and I seek audience to hear my voice, my idea, my anger, my feel. When I see my writing has no audience, I see my writing as a failure, what did I do that I did not catch their attention, Is it my heading, my title or is it too long that got them bored with what I wrote. Everytime I write i read over and over it again to make sure I can get the right attention to have them hear what I have to say. Yes, they're the silent bunch but their presence of reading what I worte tells me they approve my existance and not ignored. This is their voice to me.
comment 60
Ian date : 20/02/2008 time : 14.27
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, I think blogging is a bit like being an actor on a stage, you know the audience exists but after a while you forget them. You interact with the other players only.
If these were true blogs one indeed writes for your audience, but they are more like forums, where the players chat amongst themselves.
I think we have all of us at times tried to persuade this silent audience to join in, but they seem determined to stay silent:-)
So in the end you just forget about them, I am sure that when you have been blogging for as many years as me you will also forget they are there.
Incidentally, with true blogs "views" are called "hits" and many blog creators use third party "hit meters".
One of my old blogs has had 2313 hits since 9th May 98, many popular ones get that many in a day.

comment 59
Lalida date : 20/02/2008 time : 14.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

PJ,

I think the blog should be interesting to most, why not write one, I'll be there for sure.

Ian,

Your first Para, not picking on you but ask yourself again, when you say "as they stay silent we feel they are not there". My question will be, what's the point of you writing anything then? If only to communicate with a few, why not write e-mails? If this is not a public Blog, why does the nation put it up for free posting. There's no point putting the column "Most Active, Most Recommand, Most read". You probably seen blog with 4 comments but readers with over thousand, these are just clicks?

Between you and I, I mentioned before until the day you and I can get that grudge off between us, even whatever I say, is an attack on you so is V.V. So, Until then...stay happy

comment 58
Ian date : 20/02/2008 time : 09.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Taking Poomjai's points one step further, when are we public and when are we private? Us regular bloggers here are a relatively small group, probably a dozen as most, when we comment to each other are we doing so publicly or as amongst a small private group? I think this is a grey area, firstly there is an anonymous group of silent readers, but as long as they stay silent we feel they are not there:-)
As to the rest, there are some I feel I can comment with in a completely natural way, Yuri and Catch come in this category. Some like Ian, Hair, Felix, I am more careful with, I know they will pounce on any casual comment:-) Others, of which Lalida is an extreme example, are so prejudiced against me that no matter what I write I know they will choose to see it in the worse possible light.
So you could say that from my personal viewpoint all bloggers exist in a spectrum from say Catch at one end to Lalida at the other:-)
This creates a problem, if I make a casual comment to Catch for example, he will understand and not take it seriously, yet Lalida may read the same comment and be angry, it is a dilemma.
It is a similar problem to that being discussed in the blog about "patriotism", in a multinational environment is is best to set one's sensitivity control to a very low setting:-)
Equally, to be able to blog without discord bloggers need to set their sensitivity controls very low. To realise, as Ian (poomjai) showed in his example, our cultures have different values, we should see these blogs as an opportunity to learn and understand these different values, not just attack the user.
comment 57
Poomjai date : 19/02/2008 time : 23.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Ben,

Oops, sorry that would be three issues!
comment 56
Poomjai date : 19/02/2008 time : 23.52
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Ben,

All people respond better to constructive criticism for sure.

However, there are two issues that I would suggest are worth bearing in mind.

- however constructive the criticism, few people want to have that criticism, particularly from a foreigner, aired in a public way or in the presence of other people (with the resultant loss of face);

- similarly, few people like to receive criticism from a relative stranger (foreign or not).

- criticism will be more palatable if it is coated with comments that recognise the limitations / faults of the person delivering it or the country of their origin.

So the moral of the story is:

- If you have something important message to deliver and you want to try to effect change, deliver it quietly behind closed doors, with someone that you know well and who trusts you, and in a way which does not hold up your own example as the absolute model or ideal.

Just my thoughts.
comment 55
Poomjai date : 19/02/2008 time : 23.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Lalida,

Don't misunderstand Ian na! I think the point he is trying to make is that sometimes farangs can act in ways which they consider well intentioned but can accidentally cause offence to Thais; simply because Thai peole may not always understand western culture and the reasons that farang act in ways which appear strange.

So, for example, my girlfriend once misunderstood my intentions around the issue of paying a bill at a restaurant. Now, I am very khee krengjai and hate to let other people pay for me. But on one occasion I went for lunch with her brother who quickly paid the bill at the end of the meal before I had time to jump in.

OK, the difference is that I have been brought up not to cause a scene in a public place. So even though I wanted to pay the bill myself, I wasn't going to enter into an argument, cause a fuss and try to pay the bill when her brother already had. I would simply remember his gesture and make sure that the next time we ate together I would make sure that I paid the bill, through whatever sneaky means necessary.

However, in not putting up a fight there and then over the paying of the bill on that occasion, my girl thought that I must be khee niaw and not caring enough about her family to want to treat them.

A very basic misunderstanding driven by the fact that Thai and western approaches to certain situations can be different.

So a blog which helped to explain some of these differences might be useful don't you think?
comment 54
Lalida date : 19/02/2008 time : 17.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ben,

Well said on your last 2 Para, but the 1st one I have something to say.

Your secription applies to every single human, it's called " defending by natural instinct". For expample, you put the word "Falang" in any comment or article, you will sure hear negative or positive reply to it, if you put the name of a Nation, you will have the same reaction. This is a Natual instinct of the Universe, not just a privilage to Thai. You hear it so often perhaps your community surrounded by them and I'm definitely sure of that.
comment 53
Ben date : 19/02/2008 time : 01.19
http://harrisben.wordpress.com/

Thai's are super-sensitive towards even the smallest amount of criticism, especially when making a comparison between Thailand and one of its neighbours.

Personally I feel that criticism, made in a constructive manner, can be useful as sometimes we are so close to something we cannot see its flaws.

Unfortunately society tends to focus more on the negatives than the positives, making us forget that despite the bad, there is also good.
comment 52
Ian date : 17/02/2008 time : 22.17
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

As usual Lalida gets the wrong end of the stick, perhaps simply because the comment came from me Perhaps you can explain my comment starting at the word "Yet" half way down. She seems inclined to listen to you.
comment 51
Lalida date : 17/02/2008 time : 21.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

I'll be waiting PJ and do bear this in mind, why should we in our own land..... if you're going to talk people in Thailand.
comment 50
Poomjai date : 17/02/2008 time : 16.16
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Ian,

Good point. If I stay blogging I may well make that the subject of my next blog.
comment 49
Ian date : 17/02/2008 time : 15.29
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

One thought occurs to me. In a blog such as this one can correctly ask do Farangs try to understand Thai culture. If you are a Farang living in Thailand it is a valid question. Yet if, as the Nation paper hopes, these blogs are international in membership and content, can we not also ask, "Do Thais ever try to understand Farang culture"?
comment 48
Lalida date : 16/02/2008 time : 04.49
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

I agree with GG but not as he said in spectator mode rather moving in as if you're taking vedio shorts with the marine life, if you had a chance to see it, you see how close I got, the trick is...slow motion and as slow as you can, no sudden moves and you can eventually blend in with them, they'll even take you as one of them, swim around you, bumping into you intentionally to see what you are and by that you'll get a good result on you vedio. You make moves like as if you just know how to swim, you'll never see them again or they will turn to aggressive or defensive motion and that's the end of your vedio shooting.
comment 47
VERTIGO date : 16/02/2008 time : 02.27

Poomjai,

Thanks for your comment
comment 46
VERTIGO date : 16/02/2008 time : 02.24

GGrass

Thank you for the advice, i do actually do the "spectators mode", but at times its hard in the village where my wife lives.
I enjoy nothing more than somedays sitting out of the front of the house watching the days go by. The villagers now have got used to thier "local farang" and rather than stop and stare, they wave or nod thier heads and walk on, some even sit and have a beer and as my Issan is not that great and nor is thier English, but we get by. Life is a journey of discovery and we all should learn from each other.

I have many many friends in Thailand from all over the country and from all different walks of life and occupations, i do not and never have judged these people for what they might do in life or for what they may or may not have, i talk to them, listen to them and try my hardest to understand them and as i say they are still and will always remain good friends.
comment 45
GGrass date : 15/02/2008 time : 11.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

VERTIGO: Your advise,

'Respect and dignity to the thais (Laos, Brits, Yanks, etc)'

is universal. You go anywhere in the world, you have to do that.

But it is this very basic stuff that many people fail to do... so yeah... stick to the basics and you'll be fine.

Oh, try a bit of 'spectator mode'. It'll make it a lot easier to blend in.

'spectator mode' is when you are totally indifferent to what's going on around you, and you are just there to observe.

You have to really believe that you do not exist. You have to really make yourself INVISIBLE to them. Make yourself as small as possible.

Then they will ignore you and get on with their lives.

Then you get to see the pure side of Thai Cultures.

well, who am i to say, huh?

Just try and you'll have a lot of fun!
comment 44
Ian date : 15/02/2008 time : 10.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

ITY and Vertigo, I totally agree in principle, however to immerse oneself 100% inThai culture depends a lot upon the immediate environment in which you live. I for one am not prepared to accept nightly alcoholic binges as a way of life:-)
It is possible to integrate without total participation.
comment 43
Poomjai date : 15/02/2008 time : 05.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Vertigo,

I couldn't agree with you more. Good luck setting in to full time life in Thailand next year.
comment 42
VERTIGO date : 15/02/2008 time : 02.21

I have been coming to Thailand now for 8 years and have tried hard to understand and intergrate into the Thai culture, while i am here, (full time in 09), yes i make mistakes and sometimes an idiot of myself but thats all part of the learning process, (luckily my Thai wife points me in the right direction). In general though i feel if you are prepared to try and adapt and involve yourself at the grass roots, the Thais except you and respect you for a least trying.
I do hate the Farangs who think they know it all, are bigger and better than everyone else and expect the Thais to conform to them and not the other way round (bloody Americans dont you just love them!)
Respect and dignity to the thais is the best advice i could offer fellow Farangs, trat them how you would like to be treated and look deeper into Thailand, the culture and ways are really fasinating.
comment 41
GGrass date : 14/02/2008 time : 08.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

Boracic: AND breathing. apparantly there's no news about a suffocated blogger, so she must've been breathing at the same time as well.

That's THREE in one! Multi-task processing!
comment 40
Boracic date : 12/02/2008 time : 14.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Boracic

Thinking and typing at the same time....WOW!!
comment 39
Lalida date : 12/02/2008 time : 14.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Hey guys, lets hear some more, don't let it die down, I really like to understand more about foreigners living in Thailand, more view from the others. common lets hear it. Let me get to know you more.... I promise to keep my mouth shut.
comment 38
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 20.35
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

lalida, you write, "Sometimes we just have to sit back and let it die out "
It definitely works with urgent paperwork
comment 37
Lalida date : 11/02/2008 time : 18.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Sorry guys, I'm thinking and typing at the same time, that's why there's so many typing mistake.....he he
comment 36
Lalida date : 11/02/2008 time : 18.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ian, WE the species in human form are the most complicated, there's not a solution to everything. Sometimes we just have to sit back and let it die out or sit quietly and read the root to it and perhaps we will find a solution to it. Constantly complaining just ditract you from thinking and to find the real problem and how to solve it.

Remeber what you always mentioned about me, when I'm calm I can write sensible stuff? It's the same case with problems.
comment 35
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 18.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Wasn't Waterloo rather like WW2, the British held the line long enough for the Prussians to arrive. History is full of 'what ifs' what if Thailand had been taken over by a colonial power, how would it be today.
comment 34
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 18.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, there is indeed a small committee to deal with things, it is about as effective as a cup of water thrown on a forest fire:-)
Now I agree one should attack the system not the people, but at times the people can be the cause of the system.
I have just returned from sitting with a group of them, they were telling me that they are not on speaking terms with another group because one group's dogs fight with the other group's dogs:-) Now this to me is very funny, but to them it is a serious matter. To me there are many simple solutions but not to them. They looked to me for an answer, but the basic answer, teach their dogs discipline, is beyond them:-)
comment 33
Ian_the_younger date : 11/02/2008 time : 18.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

My noble Duke of Welling-Tom,

Thank you. I was thinking about Waterloo just this morning - London Waterloo!
comment 32
Ian_the_younger date : 11/02/2008 time : 17.55
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Lalida,

Yes I agree with you (and by the way intrude as much as you want). Nationalism and patriotism can often operate on a hair trigger when faced with an opponent perceived as antagonistic.
comment 31
TomFin date : 11/02/2008 time : 17.49
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/justconsiderations

Thank you Sir Ian.

Concerning the French and English, I was joking. I happen to love Paris and everything French...British too.

But it always comes back to Waterloo. If only...
comment 30
Lalida date : 11/02/2008 time : 17.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Hope you guys don't mind I keep intruding...

Let's face it, as a person with human nature, everyone protects their boundary. Who will not protect their love of their own country and people, regardless is bad or good. Anyone comes across with any negative comments, we're the frontline to stand our pride, our dignity and protect our country being abuse, that's natural instint, that's real patriot in our human form.
comment 29
Ian_the_younger date : 11/02/2008 time : 17.37
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Tom,

Indeed, I agree with the final point in your second para. Although it is not what you say but how you say it n'est ce que pas?

As for our friends the Frenchies, well no I don't fully agree. Much British antipathy and sarcasm towards our snail chomping chums is an affectation. Look at the affection in which people like for example Thierry Henry and Raymond Blanc are held, or indeed the number of Brits who own gites across the pond.

That said, if some gauloises puffing Gall criticised our trains we would give em what for and remind 'em of Waterloo and Trafalgar.
comment 28
Lalida date : 11/02/2008 time : 17.27
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Sorry I did, Ok coming back to your point. Right you have every right to bitch as a person of what you disapprove, but don't make it personal, attack the system not the people. To be fair, many of our perception is looking at the surface not knowing what's going on inside, so what right do we have to judge others personal issues. For example, your village which have many problems as you've mentioned and I'm sure there's a small committee to deal with matter arises within the village, you're a tenant so you have right to put in your disapproval, now whether they do anything about it , it's anothe story but just by abusing each or a group of indvidual is not going to get you anywhere.

As you've said, you have many options to deal with it and the other don't so why not make use of your options?
comment 27
TomFin date : 11/02/2008 time : 17.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/justconsiderations

Dear holier-than-thouness . Since the British believe all Frenchman are strange, it is redundant to say, “strange Frenchman”. And a Frenchman praising Britain would still be wished back from whence he came.

Lalida has a point concerning comparisons. That we should not do. Thailand is not Britain or France or China or Singapore. We, as critical humans with massive frailties, have likes and dislikes. We may dislike certain aspects of life in Thailand. We may wish that some things would change. But to say that this or that is better in our home country is comparing and complaining negatively. To suggest change for the betterment of all is constructive criticism. That does not negate our positive general love of the country.
comment 26
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 17.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, you miss the point, all I'm saying is that I have a right to bitch about it, in my analogy many of my neighbours (in reality the thai people), are doing the same. Actually I'm luckier than my neighbours, if it gets too intolerable I can move on, they can't.
comment 25
Lalida date : 11/02/2008 time : 16.50
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ian, the law protects our rights thats why we sign agreement and contract. If in anycase there's not a phrase indicating, "we reserve the right to change without prior notice", then you have every right to take legal action, if it's written and you missed out or accepted in the first place, then is only you yourself to blame.

Another option is, if you can't tolerate with that coup, move on but then are you sure the other will not be the same? It's everywhere, we just have to deal with it in a proper manner.
comment 24
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 16.29
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, exactly so, if you don't like the conditions laid down by the housing estate you don't buy and move on.
Now to take this analogy further, I bought my "house" several years ago and was happy with the conditions set out by the estate. But then there was a forced buy out of the estate management (a coup in real terms), and they changed all the conditions, some of these new conditions I am unhappy with, can I complain, or do I just shut up and accept it?
comment 23
Ian_the_younger date : 11/02/2008 time : 16.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

OK, to use another analogy, I have just returned home having been unable to get a train to London because a 'track is broken' somewhere down the line. Anyone who is English and who uses the rail system will understand my feeling. Public transport in England has improved a lot, and yet temperatures a shade below zero (not to mention leaves on the track etc. etc.) can reduce the system to chaos. It is pretty crap really. And I often moan about it to other people.

But it doesn't affect my feelings about England. This is a pretty damn good country, in my eyes.

However, whenever I find anything in Thailand that is a bit annoying I have to be so much more careful in how I express my views about it. Harmless moaning can easily be interpreted as criticism, depending on how you couch it and how well you know the person with whom you are conversing.

So, for example, if a strange Frenchman came to me and starting to whinge about British Rail my initial reaction (in the vernacular) might be to wish for his swift return to his homeland!
comment 22
Lalida date : 11/02/2008 time : 16.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

In response to your analogy, true. I would have the done the same thing but let's put it this way. If you sighted a housing estate and the design is standard and only allows to modify it its interior, will you not accept the terms cause you like the exterior design. If it's me, then I compromise I still buy the house and midify within my house. Wouldn't that be more pleasent?

As I said, comparing gets you no where except frustration. learn to live with it, compromise with it, change it little by little so it fits the others and yourself and that's the only way to go when you live in a foreign land.
comment 21
Ian_the_younger date : 11/02/2008 time : 16.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Earlsy,

Thanks.

I would hope that I am neither a boorish thug nor a saintly do gooder. Like you though I do love Thailand. It doesn't mean that I am blind to its faults and flaws. But, much like my feelings about England, there are far more things that I like in Thailand than dislike, without doubt.

As for my use of the word 'claim', OK I guess that was a bit provocative. The underlying message was - some farangs claim to have lived in Thailand for so long and yet appear to know so little. Again, I didn't pick out individuals by name. This is just a general sense I have, built over 5 years.

As Ian correctly points out, there are also many farangs who appear to understand better and have come with a desire to learn.
comment 20
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 15.59
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

This comment is partly in general, partly is response to comments by Lalida and Earlsy.
Let me first make an analogy, you buy a house, it that the end, no it is just the start. Unless you designed and built the house yourself it does not suit you 100%. You might add extra windows, redesign the kitchen, add a patio, change the colour scheme.
Now did any of these actions imply you did not like the house? No, you bought the house because you liked it, all you have done is modify it to suit your tastes better.
I moved to Thailand not because of my job, or cheap sex, or the cheap cost of living, nor even the climate, I moved here because I like here. Naturally there are some things I would like to change, but changing a country is not the same as changing a house:-) But surely I can talk about them, just as in England I might discuss the possibility of a "loft conversion", doing so is not being disloyal to my home.
People who take refuge in saying that we don't understand and accept this country are talking nonsense, sure it has a different culture, but it is still a human culture and it is still on the planet Earth, I am not living on planet X with a load of little green men. To say we don't understand this culture is to insult our intelligence. We do understand, we have Thai wives or girlfriends, how can two people live and sleep together for years and fail to understand each other and hence their cultures. Indeed if they fail they move on.
I feel that people like ITY, Greg, Catch, myself etc know Thai culture well, but all cultures have different aspects and so our understanding varies, but it is still valid. An Englishman from Brighton would have a different understand of British culture than a man from Liverpool, but they are both valid.
My understanding of the purpose of these blogsites is to allow Thais and Farangs to understand each other better by an exchange of ideas, criticisms and comments. Those Thais who are, or have been abroad are able and free to comment and criticise our countries, and often do:-) I don't see any Farangs leaping to defend their countries when this happens, in fact often we agree with these comments.
Anyway, I have wandered around a bit, but I feel that too many Thais and Thai apologists feel they hold the high moral ground, they don't.
comment 19
Lalida date : 11/02/2008 time : 15.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Arai na, a debate without me is not a debate....so here I come.....(My views) OK.

Let's sums it all at one go.....

"Compare", "acceptance" let's not talk about the ones that comes down for a few weeks of pleasure. Let's talk about the ones that actually lives here.

Not that they don't understand our country or our people, you can see various comment writing in details and sometimes is so true and I have to agree with it. The real problem is they refuse to accept what they understood, they refuse to compromise with it, they only see where they are living, standing on, communicating with is a transit. Ian as example (not targeting you OK) 80% comments refers back to UK. Why? you live in Thailand, you choose to live in Thailand and you refuse to be one of Thailand. You keep comparing, does it make any sense? compare 1 and 3, does the shape looks the same?

I have only one word for you all, you want to be happy, you don't want to feel frustated? you want our people to blend in with you....... Simple : accept reality of where you live, blend in the community of where you stay and most of all, stop comparing, you just get yourself more frustrated.
comment 18
earlsy date : 11/02/2008 time : 14.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/secondtimearound

Point taken ITY.

When I started commenting I didn't think it was going to lead to where I ended up! (after reading it through, I knew it was OTT, but followed my usual policy of posting regardless!!)

I am still interested in your answers to my questions though.

1. Where did/do you fit on the specturm between boorish thug and saintly do-gooder?

2. Why did you say "Some of the comments that I hear and read from foreigners - who CLAIM to have lived in Thailand for several years - highlights this point nicely."?
comment 17
Ian_the_younger date : 11/02/2008 time : 14.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Earlsy,

My blog is intended to provoke a debate and that it has. And my comment about language was intended to be illustrative - not at all intended to beat you with a stick. Had I wanted to do that I would have mentioned you by name.

Sorry if you think my attitude is holier than thou. Actually, my blog simply expresses what I think.

Your comment expresses well your propensity for hypersensitivity and taking umbridge. I can well understand now why you get into so many scraps with Ian.
comment 16
Obeyno1kinobe date : 11/02/2008 time : 13.18

I'm not sure what you are trying to say in this blog. Seems like a lot of observations and related ideas.

The travelling chef TV show is just entertainment, so I wouldn't take it too seriously.

The people I know who've been living here a while don't have an expectation that everywhere and everyone should behave like they do in their country of birth.

Doesn't everyone look at the world through their own cultural references.
Agree every country has good and bad. I suggest poor countries, with weak institutions, might have more negative issues. Which is only natural. Places like the UK are more stable. That's a fact, not a criticism of Thailand.

Also coming from the West I have no issue challenging the status quo on anything, including countries I am a visitor, but hopefully am open to learning something in return, and am aware of when this is appropriate.

Looking down on people who look down on Thailand seems kind of circular.
comment 15
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 13.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Ggrass, in English (British), usage a hole means "spot on" or as you put it 'precisely, to the point'. If you prefer archery you could say you hit the bullseye:-)
comment 14
GGrass date : 11/02/2008 time : 12.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

ian: although i'm a golf freak, i don't get your last comment.

a hole in one as in 'a rare, once in a bluemoon'?

or hole in one as in 'precisely, to the point'?

:-)
comment 13
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 12.35
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Ggrass, a hole in one
comment 12
GGrass date : 11/02/2008 time : 12.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

it's as if 'Kao San' isn't part of Thailand... ?
comment 11
Ian date : 11/02/2008 time : 11.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

An interesting blog, it could almost be the other side of the coin to my blog, "Are Thais institutionalised", this blog could be "are Farangs institutionalised"
I think as Narc points out, to a certain extent we are, you can take a person out of his country but you can never take his country out of his person.
My first two years here were spent as a Khao San road resident, such people are very much institutionalised in their thinking about Thailand, although to be fair to them the local Thais encourage this attitude.
Like Earlsy I am annoyed with myself that I cannot master the language, even though like him I have had no problems with several European ones.
My dissatisfaction with the Khaosan road Farang attitude was what prompted me to move off into a village environment, in the desire to learn the true Thailand, the experience has been both good and bad but I have learnt a lot. I suspect I now know some aspects of Thai culture that middle and upper class Thais don't even know exist.
It is difficult to comment without making comparisons, after all a comment needs some reference point. All of us here, Thai and farang come from different backgrounds and walks of life, so our comments may disagree, yet I think they are all valid in context.
comment 10
earlsy date : 11/02/2008 time : 10.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/secondtimearound

Tom, this is very interesting: "I have very little respect for most (not all) farang in Thailand."

I accept that you added the caveat "not all", but nevertheless that was a sweeping generalisation.

I assume you respect yourself, but I wonder what your opinion of the majority of farangs here is based upon.

I know that a certain type of man is very visible here and it would be easy to assume that they form a majority of the farangs here, but is that the case? What about the many foreign men and women here who don't parade around Sukhumvit displaying the values you look down on (sorry I know I am making an assumption here about what your objections actually are to most farangs)? Do you know that they are in the minority? What is this knowledge based on?
comment 9
TomFin date : 11/02/2008 time : 10.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/justconsiderations

Some good observation you make Ian (t-y). Of course, I cannot look at your blog as a simple statement or observation. It has many levels.

First, how are we defining culture? Your quoted comments refer to politics, food, intelligence, dating, censorship, customs etc. Not all of these would I consider part of the culture of a country or the people.

Rightly or wrongly, I make a distinction between “traditional Thai girls…asking family’s permission to have a boyfriend?” and “Got any fish and chips?”

There is much in ones own culture that should either not change or change slowly. But some areas are best changed if the country and its people wish to live a healthy, productive and enjoyable life.

Too often I hear farang say the Thai farmers are happy and should be left to their own devices. They do not need credit cards to buy fancy clothing, cell phones, stereos etc. Maybe not. But they do need health care, they do need education, they do need efficient and effective equipment to manage their farms.

I sense in many farang the “great white hunter” mentality. They are smarter, richer, and wiser to the children of the lesser God. Truth is, all people want the same. And that includes the desire for their children to have a better life than they have had. But how that better life is defined will be influenced by culture, education, communication and the openness of the society in which the people live.

Without going into detail and turning this into a long essay, the culture of a country is not and should not be static. Culture is kinetic. It must be for its people to survive.

And interaction with farang, foreign news reports, movies and (occasionally) a book will help the society make the change, to leave some traditions in histories dustbin and adapted others for the “modern” times.

I have very little respect for most (not all) farang in Thailand. (That could be another blog, but I do not have the time.) And what you suggest, Ian, in your blog, I agree with. But I am not sure if it is always an attack on the culture. It is, I believe, simple stupidity and a complete lack of sensitivity.
comment 8
GGrass date : 11/02/2008 time : 09.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

I'm not known for saying anything 'serious', but I'll try...

It is so true, when a group of foreigners meet, the conversation easily turns to 'big comparison game between cultures'.

And since we are in Thailand, I assume Thailand is one of the culture that we compare against. UK vs Thailand, KOR vs Thailand...

And as Narcisuss puts it, it's pretty healthy in small doses... Earlsy would agree to that...

But when does a 'small dose' become a 'big dose'?
comment 7
naive date : 11/02/2008 time : 09.30
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/naive
Narrow and wide by "Naive" point of view. ...................................*v*....................................................................For Thai reader visit http://www.oknation.net/blog/wickedgirl

As you quote your underline as "Farang Rak Thai"
Just love her .. no need to understand (Best wayX
I'm half chinese born here with a bit different attitude.. still not understand many things going on
in the other people mind also.
Try this.. just think as Ian the younger not just "A British" your world will be wider
comment 6
earlsy date : 11/02/2008 time : 09.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/secondtimearound

Narc, "Is this unhealthy in small doses? Don't think so. "

Good point. We do all need to able to relax sometimes...
comment 5
narcisuss date : 11/02/2008 time : 09.22
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/narcisuss
I  come in peace :)

Earlsy, just a light hearted comment: "Why does our level of commitment to or understanding of Thailand have to be competitive? "

It's sort of funny that you mention that. I was just joking with one of my friends at school, that if you take a trip to the dreaded Kao sarn road and talk to some of the backpackers they often seem to be competing about who understands the most or has been exposed the most to 'real thailand'. Yet they are all sitting in Kao sarn road.
comment 4
narcisuss date : 11/02/2008 time : 09.17
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/narcisuss
I  come in peace :)

Nice blog. I would like to comment more carefuly, but I have to run to school.

I don't think all of the comments quoted above necessarily reflect that the commentator is not 'trying', or is ignorant of Thai culture.. But I don't think you mean that either.

I do get the impression that if you put a bunch of foreigners together the conversation can turn into a big comparison game between cultures.
This occurs for several natural reasons; people having romanticized views about the things they miss from back home is one out of many.

Is this unhealthy in small doses? Don't think so. But in large doses it can obstruct integration, if that is one's goal...
comment 3
GGrass date : 11/02/2008 time : 09.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

I've been trying to understand why the motorcycle riders and construction workers wear ski masks and heavy jackets for years...

Only few years ago, when I started playing golf, I understood their wisdom.
comment 2
earlsy date : 11/02/2008 time : 09.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/secondtimearound

ITY, interesting idea, most of which has been discussed ad nauseam, but admittedly not all that recently.

Where on the spectrum did you fit in when you were in Thailand?

Reading this blog made me think about myself and my attitude here, especially as you referred directly to some comments I have made in the past.

Why did you say "claimed" when referring to how long people have lived here? That strongly implies that you think people are not telling the truth.

I love my life here in Thailand and I am very conscious of the importance of respecting the culture here. Some discussions on these very blogs have further opened my eyes to the very different perspective that Thais/Asians have on life from Westerners like me. I am very grateful to the likes of GG and Veen for so eloquently explaining their thoughts on karma and other things which highlight the different angles from which we all see things.

I don't want to use this comment to boast about how I integrate into Thai society, but I do slightly resent having things I have said used to make me look like an intolerant boor.

I am ashamed of my lack of ability to speak and understand Thai. It is not that I understand absolutely nothing or that I can't say a single word, rather that I seem to have an invisible barrier stopping me from moving to the next level (despite taking lessons). I used to consider myself to be a bit of a linguist. I studied French, Latin and German at school and became nearly fluent in French after spending several months there in my 20s. This makes my low level of Thai even more surprising, so of course, I want to understand why. My theory about it becoming, as you so aptly put it, "white noise" was just an attempt to find a reason why I have not achieved a higher level of speaking and writing Thai. It could equally be because I have not made a concerted effort to learn the alphabet, so can not visualise the sounds I hear and try to make.

When I say all this, it is from a position of a genuine Thaiofile, so it is rather disappointing to have my self confessed failings used as a stick to beat me with.

Why does our level of commitment to or understanding of Thailand have to be competitive? Why tar all "farangs" with the same brush. This could be a very positive discussion if the potential participants did not feel alienated by your holier than thou attitude.

Wow, that turned into a bit of a tirade...
comment 1
Ravej date : 11/02/2008 time : 08.47

I've noticed that when Chinese or Thais immigrate to the US or UK, for example, a great many of them lived in Chinatowns and other ethnic ghettos. The same is true with Farangs in Thailand. They seem to congregate Farang ghettos in Phuket, Ko Samui & Phang-ngan, Pattaya, and Bangkok.

The difference in the ghettos is primarily economic. Chinatowns are notoriously dirty and relatively poor. The farang ghettos in Thailand are generally more affluent than the Asian ghettos in the developed world. Also Thais are more accomdating to farangs living in Thailand, than vice versa. This is to be expected when you have first world people living in a third world country or vice versa - third world people living in a first world country. I think the farangs you speak of understand Thai culture very well... they know they can get better treatment in Thailand than in their own countries. They also know that Thais living in their country will get worst treatment.
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