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Free Expression
The objective is to discuss social issues and provide some useful tips in Thai language. Comments from readers are welcome.
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/oldguard2
Sunday , June 14 , 2009
Of things Thai, Part 3: Traditions, social customs and etiquette
Posted by krajog , Reader : 4438 , 16:44:13  
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Thai people in each region have their own way of life from the North to the South and from the East to the West and the Central Plain. Thai people in Bangkok have their own way of life and their own set of etiquette. The regional difference in traditions and social customs is due mainly to historical background and the formative stage of political and social development as well as exposure to outside world. Religion has played a leading role in traditions of each society. In Thailand, local traditions may vary from place to place depending on ethnicity of the majority of people. In the North, places like Chiangmai, Chiangrai, Lampang and Lampoon used to be small city states with their own rulers. These former city states in the old time used to submit to the powerful Burmese rulers and were influenced by Burmese culture and traditions, particularly architecture of the Buddhist temples and certain social norms.

The traditions as kept by other regions cannot penetrate the strong belief of the local people in their own way of habits and life style. That is why each region can retain their own regional culture and dialect. Thai language has four distinguished tones and groups of words exclusively used in spoken Thai: The northern dialect, the southern dialect, the northeastern dialect and the eastern dialect. The language used in Central Plain are not different much to official Thai. Only accent can be distinguished from province to another. Most of the people in each region who are educated in schools with teachers using the official Thai to teach students in their classes can easily switch their tongues to speak the way Bangkokians speak. 

 You will see the spirit houses on a pole in almost every house of Thai people at a corner of their front yards.  Tai people call the spirit house ‘Sal Phra Bhumi  ‘Sal’ or ‘Sala” means shrine. This tradition was from the old belief in the spirits of forebears or ancient guardian spirits of the places they presently live. The belief in spirits or ghosts has been with mankind since the ancient time when they had not yet understand the natural phenomenon and diseases that had taken away their lives. Instinctively, Man needs something to comfort his mind when in fear of unknown power and becoming hopeless in life-threatened situation. Fear is basic instinct in mankind and animal-kind. Seeking comfort in spirits of ancestors is deep-rooted common belief in all societies. So far, the knowledge of science is still incapable of eliminating the belief in spirits and ghosts people all over the world. Hinduism, Islam and Christianity are in the same league in believing in Gods. Buddhism has no God in its basic principles as the power that can control your life. But it preaches the existence of super-beings called devata or devas in Sanskrit which means those in an angelic state of being or celestial beings if you like to call them so. Buddhism does not treat any deva like Superman or having mystic power Zues or other gods  have in Greek mythology. A deva has no role in dictate any people’s life. People depend on their own deeds, not deva or God or spirit. But the influences of ancient traditions and customs are difficult to bust. So, the local traditions and customs have to live side by side in compromise. That’s why Buddhist events in Thailand are sometimes mixed with Brahmin ceremonial practices and local customs

There are many social customs practiced in Thailand. The most seen in Thai social customs is the greeting by wai a Thai people do for another.  But it is not a standard whenever two people meet. The general rules are as follows.

            1) A younger person (man or woman) is the first to greet an older person by raising both hands with palms close together to perform a “wai” (äËÇé) as a sign of respect. The young person needs to bow his/her head a little to meet both hands at about his/her nose. The common etiquette is to “wai” everyone present in a group of older persons to be courteous to all. The older persons need to accept the greeting by rub wai (ÃѺäËÇé) or wai to return the honour. A Thai people honour other people as they meet in any place by exchanging the wai. If the two parties know each other as close friends, wai is not necessary.

2) Wai is a way to express politeness and modesty by one person to another person. The accepted rules at a workplace are:  it is good for junior staffer to express humbleness toward his/her unit manager or senior executives. Wai is a way to give honour to other people both in private and public areas. It’s not matter if you are older than the person who is higher in ranking. Let think about the military rule for saluting among military personnel. If you a colonel you have to salute a major general you meet at any occasion first even though you are 56 and the general is 52. Ranking and position is more important than age in official circle of every country.

3) Well-trained small girls will wai  older people in a very polite way by bending her knees a little. Grown-up persons (men or women) will bow a little bit while doing a wai to much older persons, for example, father or mother of a friend or persons in top positions in their organisations. Politeness is key in Thai social etiquette, any kind of rude manner used among friends have no place in the etiquette rules for all occasions.

A wai can mean many things: a way to say sorry, a regret, an apology or begging for pardon. When a minor has made a mistake or did any bad manner unintentionally to an adult, it's good to quickly raise his hands to perform a wai. This is a basic rule. When a son or a daughter made a mistake big enough to cause any parent to feel sad. The best for the son or daughter to apologize or ask for forgiveness is to wai the parent at his or her chest. This way is done among family members only.

In certain circumstance of serious misconduct causing parents to be very upset, a teenage or a grownup child of the family may bring a  jusmine flowers garland in a paan, a small gold-plated flat top container with a base underneath or a silver plate, to give to the parent and ask for the parent's kindness and forgiveness and then wai or graab the parent at her or his feet or on the laps if sitting on a chair or the floor.

A wife can ask for forgiveness from her husband with a wai at his chest if she made a grave mistake that bring sadness to her husband.

4) Laypeople have to perform a wai for monks at all time whenever wherever they meet any monk. The monks will accept your respect by saying something to greet you. Monks cannot wai ordinary people. Among them, junior monks have to wai senior monks as a rule. In religious ceremonies, the rule is to graab the senior monks.  Graab is to sit on the floor in any posture and bow your head and torso down with your hands closed together and rest on the floor. Your head is to touch your hands. If the people you do the graab for is ordinary people, you don’t need to put your palms flat on the floor. Jus keep them together as in the wai form. But if you graab a monk or a Buddha image you need to put your palms flat down to the floor.

5) For small children at kindergarten age or very young grand children, Thai senior people need not to wai  them in return. Parents and grandparents can accept greeting from family members in any polite way.

6)  Thai people may say “Swasdi krub” or “ka”, while they perform a wai to give double greetings by word and body language at the same time. To engage in conversation further or not is up to relationship between the two parties. If the greeting by wai is done as a courtesy while a junior walking pass a senior, that is enough. It’s the same as done in Europe or America when two people say “hello” with a nod while walking pass each other on a narrow corridor or walkway.

Etiquette is a code of manner, which is different from country to country and from society to society in the same country. For example, Thai people regard their ‘head’ as a highest piece in their body. Anything considered  high in Thai tradition is worthy of giving respect. This tradition makes Thai people to pay special care in their manner if it involves head and hairs of other people. Touching head of other people, particularly senior people in the family and colleagues and strangers is taboo as it is taken as an insult and serious breach of good manner. Only parents, grandparents and other senior relatives can touch the head of their small children or grandchildren. When their children or grandchildren turned into adulthood, touching head of adult family members is not proper any more. In a Thai family, sons and daughters are not allowed to touch their parents’ head as a way of showing their closeness or love.

Feet are regarded as the lowest parts of human body. So, it is not proper to use a foot to kick a cabinet door or a drawer of a filing cabinet to close in front of other people. Using a foot to point to something or kick a small object on the floor to other people even she is your secretary or a junior staff-member is a very bad manner. You may be considered an uncivilized and badly raised by your parents.  They may take what you have done to them in such bad manner as an serious insult to their status as a person.  Many office workers in Bangkok come from good Thai families with the sense of pride in their family background and bloodline from their ancestors. Many of them are still related to the old-time aristocrats and royal families in the past.

For foreigner living in Thailand if work in an organization or associated with some well-cultured Thais, observing Thai customs and traditions is a very good idea. They will gain respect from their Thai colleagues or friends. Respect is the most important social norm throughout this side of the world, not only in Thailand.

 

 

 


Read comment

comment 37
krajog date : 24/06/2009 time : 20.37
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/oldguard

DKO C27

I have responded to your questions in my new entry, Part 7 of this blog and it will continue in Part 8 to be posted tomorrow morning.
comment 36
DKO date : 23/06/2009 time : 12.27
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

C34

Thanks Maverick

I will have a read of your links

Regards, Dave
comment 35
DKO date : 23/06/2009 time : 12.24
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

ND C33

Thanks for your comments.

I am not perfect either. In particular, I allow myself to get drawn into defending those who I perceive (rightly or wrongly) are victim to a particular comment or "dig" (they may not be not necessarily the "overall" victim). This in itself cause further non salient commentary.

This Blog proves the point. By my making a few lines of comment on a Blogger's comment about another Blogger it led to huge input none relevant to this Blog and highlighted differences further.

For that I am truly sorry and apologise.
comment 34
maverick263 date : 22/06/2009 time : 22.47

@ DKO, c.27:

here's a link to some fine article on thai magic astrology & politics. though i do not agree w authors underlying assumptions... --- it makes for a fascinating read na:

blurb:

"

Pasuk Phongpaichit and Chris Baker have sent through a paper they presented at the Siam Society in December 2008. It deals with the same general set of magical themes as the article by Charles Keyes discussed in this recent New Mandala post. The text of the Pasuk and Baker presentation, plus a fascinating series of powerpoint slides, is available here. Their concluding paragraph deserves special attention:

In the end, the survival of these beliefs has a profoundly anti-democratic aspect. Generals who command a nation’s armed forces, and businessmen with assets in billions of dollars, are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.

In the context of my earlier question about the enduring role of spirits, stars and other rituals in the life of the Thai palace such issues are worthy of some further reflection. Thanks to Pasuk and Chris for sharing their illuminating analysis."

link:

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2009/05/01/pasuk-and-baker-on-spirits-stars-and-thai-politics/#more-5198


link to pdf:

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pasuk-and-baker-on-spirits-stars-and-politics.pdf
comment 33
notdisappointed date : 22/06/2009 time : 16.06

DKO, I appreciate your post to exp. c30. It seems that bloggers are chasing each other all over the various blogs just to get a swipe at each other. (sadly I do it also sometimes).

And I do agree that is is an annoyance and pollutes an otherwise good blog that is to everybody's benefit. I'll by being the first to start to take your post to heart.
comment 32
DKO date : 21/06/2009 time : 17.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Thanks Noonin will check it out
comment 31
noonin date : 21/06/2009 time : 15.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

DKO I suggest you read "Wondering into Thai Culture"
by Mont Redmond.
ISBN974-86270-4-7
comment 30
DKO date : 21/06/2009 time : 11.55
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Expresso. I realised my error on the Alias.
Please may I refer you to my later C22 last para in which I said:

"(PS I mistakenly mentioned in C19 that Ian misquoted Expresso's alias at times. I was in error and was thinking of another Blogger)"
I assume you did not see that. HOWEVER, I of course, apologise to you (and anybody I reply to) when accidentally referring to an incorrect alias. Did I not apologise for the error you refer to at the time when you pointed it out?
No matter I am happy to apologise again.

---
Whether you like Ian and whether your reasons are justified (I will NOT get into that one) I feel, not even you, can say Ian is not well educated, has read many books on many subjects in his lifetime and (like my brother) has an excellent memory for things he has seen, read or learnt.

Bearing that in mind for you to suggest (as you originally did).

"Hey, today, I know how to wai and don't ever feel awkward. I think that when farangs have learned how to wai, they should be treated as less-farangish! I doubt Ian will ever learn!

You clearly introduced Ian into the Blog unnecessarily and provocatively. What Ian does or does not do, is totally irrelevant to Krajog's Blog.

Many of us are fed up with the personal grudges, digs and verbal battles between various Bloggers, that at time continue and spread throughout many unassociated Blogs and pollute the Weblog (whether partially understandable or not).

I believe you to be an intelligent man Expresso, but I cannot believe you are serious in your suggestion Ian "I doubt Ian will ever learn" to wai.

I am certain every Foreigner in Thailand (or who has visited Thailand) knows how to Wai (whether perfectly executed or not). I accept HOWEVER, a PERFECT Wai and who you do not need to Wai to and who you MUST may take a little longer to learn.

Now you say;
" Lastly, I brought up Ian, because I can see him not agreeing to the Thai traditions, customs, and etiquette, judging from his writings! But Ian is a senior citizen so he's got a certain rights in the Thai society if he selects not to. But for you to butt in here, I think you should look at my c11 and then your c12 to see if you owe me an apology"

I do not know if Ian agree with all Thai customs and etiquette BUT I make no apology on my comments concerning Ian's Wai's as I commented ONLY on your suggestion he had not learnt to Wai and NOT whether he agreed with or liked to do so.

You now accuse me of butting in.
WRONG!!!! You butted into a decent Blog and conversation by bringing up Ian, for no other apparent reason than your continuing war of words with him.

I will not discuss Ian further. May I suggest that you please argue with Ian directly (preferably by PM) or do so in your own Blog.

Krajog (and others). My sincere apologies for my unassociated comments (to the Blog). Please delete as you feel appropriate.
comment 29
expresso date : 21/06/2009 time : 00.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

DKO, people remember the way they want to and claim as the truth. You did that in your c19. But it's ok with me. I don't care about petty matters. But just in defense of Ian for a change which I know for a FACT Ian did not wrongly call my alias. It's you, DKO

You called me 'peacefulness'. I never bothered to point it out

Now, remove your tinted glasses. Look at my c11, which conforms to the blog subject. I detailed my personal experience and how I had changed after assimilating into the Thai society in the past 40 years. I then gave my opinion on how farangs should be regarded after offering myself as an example. Lastly, I brought up Ian, because I can see him not agreeing to the Thai traditions, customs, and etiquette, judging from his writings! But Ian is a senior citizen so he's got a certain rights in the Thai society if he selects not to. But for you to butt in here, I think you should look at my c11 and then your c12 to see if you owe me an apology
comment 28
expresso date : 21/06/2009 time : 00.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

DKO, quoting you, "Forgive me but I am still somewhat confused because in THIS Blog Ian has not made a single comment and has not participated at all."

DKO, look into my last paragraph of my c17:

"Oh, why do you think Ian has (not)responded here after my c11 as he has done everywhere? Now, use your critical thinking. The answer?...He doesn't know or want to wai."

DKO, you don't know how to read and interpret a character from the way he/she writes.
comment 27
DKO date : 20/06/2009 time : 19.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Noonin (C26),

No Problem

Could not agree with you more Noonin on keeping Blogs salient to the intended subject and I'm very happy for my non salient comments to be deleted by Krajog any time he wishes.

Unless abusive I will always reply to a question or criticism on something I have said (even if off subject) as I consider it good manners but I have no desire to harm the article subject matter.

-----

I fully appreciate Krajogs efforts and excellent articles as I have learnt quite a few things, or am now clearer in my understanding.

A subject I would love to see Krajog cover is Thais mixing of Buddhism and old Gods (often Hindu), magic, ghosts, lucky/unlucky numbers, days, fortune telling, astrology because to my "not very religious" Christian/Western eyes they at times seem contradictory. Yet all the Thai around me seem to feel that I am mistaken in my belief that they are at times picking and choosing what they believe on different occasions.

This would therefore imply there is something I do not understand about how these all co-exist.

I would also be interested in the role of sex within Thai society. I am NOT trying to lower the tone or discuss the "bargirl" scene when I say this.

I am interested in the traditional Thai attitudes regarding this within Society in general and within marriage/family bearing in mind culture and Buddhism.

I say this because I see many typical western attitudes about sex and relationships YET I also am aware of many genuinely extremely conservative attitudes (i.e. virgin until marriage, sex within marriage is essentially for babies, not pleasure and should be minimal if a good Buddhist Thai etc.)

Another subject of interest to me is what Thai traditional roles are for men and women within Society, family, marriage and relationships and what each sexes' perceptions/understanding/ expectations are of their respective roles.

I find the views/customs I have come across at times seemingly complex to understand and sometimes diverse.

My wife will often says to me "Thais believe" or "in Thai culture" BUT I am unsure if that is HER perception/custom , localised perceptions/customs or near universal Thai perceptions and culture.

I would be very interested in Krajog shedding some light on these subjects.

I first came to Thailand 3½ years ago and married (big mistake) a young ruthless and unpleasant gold digger (my stupidity and naivety with Internet dating), divorced 4 months later thankfully and married not long after following a whirlwind but this time genuine romance. I have been happily married for over 3 years to my current Thai wife.

I advise this only to explain that I am not a long time or frequent visitor to Thailand. Consequently, my understanding and exposure to South East Asian and specifically Thai culture and customs has been very short so far, a crash course, one book "Thai Fever" AND my time here has been almost entirely living in Isaan.

Krajog's articles and input AND Others' associated comments are very helpful to me.
comment 26
noonin date : 20/06/2009 time : 15.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Sorry Dave, was that way out.
Too many sensible discussions get side tracked.

As Krajog statedin his firstreply

To all readers,
The purpose of this blog is to discuss the standard traditions, customs and etiquette well-cultured Thai people have practiced for a long time and have become social norms for this country.

This is what this blog should be about.
comment 25
DKO date : 20/06/2009 time : 11.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Noonin thanks for the explanation.

Forgive me but I am still somewhat confused because in THIS Blog Ian has not made a single comment and has not participated at all.

I appreciate that you do not seem to be a fan of Ian, his level of participation or the power you feel he yields on this Weblog.

I also agree Ian participates in many Blogs. but I wish to ask you "is that wrong or unfair?" I am sure most of us, and you, believe in Freedom of Speech and right of opinion provided its not, incitement of anti social or human behaviour, unlawful or personally abusive.

My understanding is that a Blog site is for members to make comments as often, or as rarely, as they please and there are no restrictions on volume.

I assume that TN set up this weblog to welcomes as many Bloggers and as much input as members feel inclined to make. Do you not agree that to try and restrict any members volume or number of Blogs they are permitted to participate would be censorship and restriction of Freedom of Speech?

TN are in full control of this Weblog and can ban you, me or Ian at any time for any reason if they so wish and they will if they feel it appropriate.

JMO and I respect your right to think differently and to say so. I am sure others have other views to both of us. takes all sorts to make a world

Regards, Dave
comment 24
noonin date : 19/06/2009 time : 20.41
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Should have been site.
comment 23
noonin date : 19/06/2009 time : 20.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

DKO because every blog on this sight has to have Ian's comment.
Any other blogger is supposedly permitted by Ian to comment, not Thanong, or Yoon Netnapit, Piset,Krajog!
Whose blog is this?
comment 22
DKO date : 19/06/2009 time : 20.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Noonin C20 & C21. ??????????

I don't know why his name was FIRST brought up Noonin and said so. However may I point out you have raised his name yourself twice in two comments in a row which has led to my undesired reply on the Ian subject to your question.

To recap:
Expresso brought Ian into the conversation. I replied I doubted the comment was valid.
Expresso raised further questions and I replied.

sycophant for Ian I am not, but I respect a lot of what he says BUT not everything. You will find several instances when I have said so and strongly at times.

Why are you stirring up the pot Noonin if you do not wish this fine Blog to be damaged or taken off subject further? I reply ONLY because you asked and I believe in answering.

May I remind you I said at the start of my C19, I am totally happy for my reply to Expresso to be deleted by Krajog (I can say and do no more as this is not my Blog. Krajog can delete any comment he wishes and at any time). I replied to Expresso as I believe it courtesy to respond to another Blogger's questions when asked to do so by that Blogger.

(PS I mistakenly mentioned in C19 that Ian misquoted Expresso's alias at times. I was in error and was thinking of another Blogger)
comment 21
noonin date : 19/06/2009 time : 18.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Ian has not commented on this blog.
Why is his name mentioned?
comment 20
noonin date : 19/06/2009 time : 18.30
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Another blog ruined!
Please remember this is Ian's blog, not the Nation's.
Every time an interesting debate takes place, we all have to cow tow to Ian.
It is like scent marking.
Place a blog , Ian will comment, it becomes Ian's blog.
When he replies the sychophants quickly endorse his profound comments.
comment 19
DKO date : 19/06/2009 time : 11.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Krajog, I appreciate I am off subject answering Expresso's C17 but his enquiry was in this Blog. I ASK you to allow Expresso time to see my reply to him. After that I am very happy for you to delete this reply to keep your excellent Blog on subject .

-------

Expresso C17,

I always believe in answering polite comments whether critical of me or not.

Will do my best here too

Books: Unlike Ian, I am not well read. I do not usually read books (only recall reading 2 in 35 years). I read a book on Spanish History when I first moved to Spain and Thai Fever before visiting Thailand. I watch much TV and TV based news. I also buy language books and take bits from them (as and when) but never fully read them.

---

MY “JMHO (nothing personal)” was the final sentence in respect to my previous views on Wai'ing and whether Farangs find it embarrassing, not necessary or whatever.

Regarding Ian Wai'ing. discussed in my very LAST paragraph and therefore change of subject was not associated with the previous paragraphs.

I think my placement of "JMHO (nothing personal)" was clear in what it was referring to. Had I placed it at the end of my whole comment and after my paragraph on IAN Wai'ing then I feel you would have been justified in your observation (BUT IT WAS NOT and was deliberately carefully placed) .

Why I made my comment on your Ian Wai jibe;
As far as I noted (please correct me if I am mistaken) your "dig" at Ian in THIS Blog was not in response to any previous comment by him, or another’s comment referring to him in THIS Blog.

I was giving my genuine OPINION that I believe Ian does Wai and has done so for a long time (please feel free to provider evidence or Ian comments to suggest me wrong ) and wondered why you brought up the point in Krajog's Blog, unless trying to provoke a retaliatory response from Ian .

I am fully aware you and Ian do not see eye to eye and do not like each other BUT side-swipes from EITHER OF YOU at each other, in others Blogs only serves progress the animosity. To be fair I am well aware that Ian does the same to you and misquotes your alias.

I PERSONALLY disapprove of snide personal comments, whoever the promulgator.

---

You queried my factual proof compared to yours. I made no factual statement. "I feel sure.." is not a factual or statement of proof, but suggesting I am very confident in my BELIEF. Now do you have proof relating to Ian Wai'ing "(I refer to your comment below);

“Hey, today, I know how to wai and don't ever feel awkward. I think that when farangs have learned how to wai, they should be treated as less-farangish! I doubt Ian will ever learn!"

---

My support or Lalida versus you was over the extreme PERSONAL abuse I considered you made on her.

You partially continue hear with your unsavoury "tart" remark bringing ANOTHER in the line of personal fire when she is long gone on TN..

Yes I know Lalida retaliated in kind (which is NOT my way and I do not approve of that either) BUT I felt “in retaliation” less bad than “initial attacks”. MHO

I will support her (or anybody) when I agree with them and, as you will know, we have many disagreements on politics and degree of her views.

I as you know, I have often attack those (not like for like) who make unnecessary nasty or foul personal attacks on individuals. I have no favouritism on this, but do feel those who start it cannot complain too much if they "reap what they sow" from those they attack.

My consistent view has always been stated and is well known "attack the message by all means, harshly if desired BUT NOT abuse the Messenger at a personal level".

I do appreciate that when someone is overly abusive at a personal level of another it is near impossible for others, when criticising the perpetrator for the attacks, for that not to be at a personal level BUT it should be measured and certainly not "like for like"

---

Your ability of reading people is better than mine. Well maybe you are correct, maybe not. I will leave that for others to decide if they feel it important.

I feel I read people pretty well, but despite that, am too trusting and give them the benefit of the doubt too often when and logic and others feel I should not, or should at least be more cautious and wary. Needless to say I have been burnt several times, even though I saw the writing on the wall. As I said too trusting and especially in respect to those I like love or think true friends - they saw me coming as the phrase goes

----

Hope I have answered all you main points Expresso. If not please point out where not as I am not trying to evade response.
comment 18
expresso date : 19/06/2009 time : 00.10
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

has responded here = has NOT responded here
comment 17
expresso date : 19/06/2009 time : 00.06
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

DKO, I read your c12, directed at my c11 which is not directed at you). And now, when I look at your c16, I can't help but laugh. I thought you read all the books and thus lectured me in your c12. Apparently not

Near the end of your c12, you said, "JMHO (nothing personal)". Then you concluded by saying:

"Regarding Ian Wai'ing I feel sure he both knows how to Wai and has done so for many years. I feel you are being unnecessarily mischievous as I am sure you have no factual knowledge of Ian's use of traditional Thai customs. Regarding Ian Wai'ing I feel sure he both knows how to Wai and has done so for many years."

In the above you said, "I feel you are being unnecessarily mischievous as I am sure you have no factual knowledge of Ian's use of traditional Thai customs."

Then, you said, "Regarding Ian Wai'ing I feel sure he both knows how to Wai and has done so for many years."

DKO, look at the above 2 paragraphs! Do they make sense? You are saying you have a factual knowledge and I don't. But I'm mischievous and you are not? Mamamiya!

I have said earlier: facts -->individual perception -->new individual facts. Do you understand this? I guess not. Otherwise, you wouldn't have called me mischievous.

DKO, you are a nice guy so I don't want to bug you and neither do I want you to bug me. After all, I have no time.

I may not be a critical thinker but I believe I read characters pretty well, at least better than you DKO; and that's not complimenting myself or demeaning you.

As for Ian knowing how to wai, which you have claimed to be your fact: I don't think, even when he does, his hands will ever be above his chin, or will show a slight bow....Why do I think that? Because I read character from experience; unlike you, who read books.

DKO, like I said, you are a nice guy and I have put aside the time you supported the tart for trying to get me banned. You may reply but it won't guaranteed a response from me.

Oh, why do you think Ian has responded here after my c11 as he has done everywhere? Now, use your critical thinking. The answer?...He doesn't know or want to wai
comment 16
DKO date : 18/06/2009 time : 16.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Krajog ,

Many thanks for such complete, detailed answers to Noonin's and my comments/observations.

They are much appreciated as I am in a constant state of wishing to understand and learn more of my (Visas permitting) permanent country of residence's way of life and customs.

Wai'ing.
I have a small problem as I have classless attitudes and consequently for me ANY adult or child I wish to acknowledge, or say Hello to is worthy of a Wai.

May I ask if it is wrong or impolite in Thai culture or, seen as not genuine if I continue to Wai to those I wish to acknowledge (whatever their status or age).

I ask because I know many people feel the British say please and thank you too much and feel it is a habit rather than genuine. For me it genuine if I say them and etiquette and good manners.

Thanks, Dave
comment 15
noonin date : 17/06/2009 time : 17.56
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Thank you Kuhn Krajog.

A very thorough and authoritative answer.

I like my spirit house as it is beautiful and it some how connects me to the house and family.
I always turn the lights on at dusk and feel guilty if I forget.
My wife makes offerings and it makes her content.
Spirits or not it provides a sort of heart to the home, a place of respect in my garden, a little temple.
I know it has no religious connection with Buddhism excepting that it reminds one of spirituality and things beyond our comprehension.
That you cannot simply go to a shop and buy one, place it in the garden without a proper ceremony adds to its value. The consecration ceremony was a special day shared with those closest to us.
Maybe this is the modern way of regarding spirit houses.
comment 14
krajog date : 17/06/2009 time : 12.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/oldguard

DKO c12

My brief guideline for "wai-ing" is:

1) If your're at your place, private or workplace, and you're the biggest man in terms of rank. You needs not to wai anyone first because they're all below in rank.

2) When you meet anyone who works at your organisation as your advisor or a board advisor and his older than you, the good etiquette is to wai him or her first with a greeting "Swasdi krub" (rhymes with club). For a professional consultant you have hired, you can act a polite way of saying "hello or Swasdi krub". If he give you a wai, you do the wai in return.

3) If you're an CEO or President of a company as a professional, you need not wai anyone first but need to wai in return. At a Board meeting, as a CEO and President, you're still not the biggest guy. The Chairman is bigger, anyway. So, the first you meet any board member who is not your friend, it is good to act as a nice man by giving a wai to that board member.

I have practicing to give a wai to somebofy else who look close to my age. That is to say "I'm a modest man and friendly to you and I respect you."
In a country club or a social club environment, being friendly to fellow clubmembers is better than for other club members to dislike you as an arrogant member. You willl have nothing to gain from a negative image.

4) Anyone feels awkward to wai or say "Swasdi krub", is still in a state of self-conciousness in terms of racial superiority or "I am an American or Englishman or a German, etc.". Why's I have to do as a local people do. I'm here as a boss or a first-class professional. I don't need to respect any secoond-class peopl here. It seems like an ancient Roman legionaire in a strange land talking to himself, I'm a civilized Roman and a superiorman, I have no need to follow the lowly local people customs." I think by being an arrogant man in any society or corporate entity, you would become a loser in very short time. An arrogant man will never find happiness anywhere. He will make a lot of enemies and antagonists, instead.

5) To mix well with local staff or people in the same community, there are a few rules of etiquette to be observe at all time. Being polite and gentle with your colleagues and neighbours. Being courteous to your colleagues and neighbours in a proper way. Being kind and helpful to your colleagues in their use of English while working tigether. Being friendly, not aloof, towards your colleagues and neighbours. Taking part in social gathering with your colleagues or neighbours from time to time will help you immerse in hidden local customs.

As to having spirit house at their living places, modern Thai people are not taking the idea as serious as in the old days. This is due to various reason. One is that some people look at erecting a spirit house at their home as too superstitious. Another is there is no one inluding an astrologer or their parents suggested for the erection of a spirit house as guardian of bad spirits ora bad omen which might have been there befor you come to live at the place. The third one is you are confident that nothing can harm or haunt you as strong-minded person. The last but not least one is you have had no experience in paranormal activities or do not believe in mystic power of unseen objects.

Having a spirit is still a Thai customs but is not regarded as a serious matteras in the past. Besides, a lot of Thai people todays live in a small house with no front yards or in a condo, where there is no space for a spirit house. A Buddha image on a small altar is enough. By the way, Thai people do not use "icon" for Buddha in any form. "Image" is a standard word for a sculture that represents the Buddha at a temple or anywhare.
comment 13
krajog date : 17/06/2009 time : 10.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/oldguard

DKO c 8, noonin c 9

You're right in understanding Thai culture in certain places is has been degrading. It's natural phenomenon of changes in way of life everywhere. Two major forces of change are 1) economy of each regon which effects financial status of the people living in that region. The people who live in poverty will be concerned with earning enough to carry on their lives. Their hardship makes them aggressive in one way of another. Why poor people live in rundown neighbourhood use rude and insulting words to others who are better in social status? Politeness is a culture in every developed society but it means nothing among deprieved and depressed communities. 2) The influences of aggressiveness in modern money-talk society through the waves of capitalism from the West. Any culture that focuses on humility and the Middle Way or a well-balanced lifestyle would give way to less-culturized lifestyle in which you can do anything you like without any concern about traditions and customs.This is a testimony of cultural degradation in people mind. Culture itself cannot be degraded. Once it is established as a set of rules in any society. You can compared culture with Michelangelo's David in its artistic value. When Michelangelo put his final touch to David. It's artistic value has been established and will last forever. You can destroy any beautiful work of art as a mterial in many ways. But cultures or morality, no! Loss through the passage of time is possible. But a new set of culture or morality can reemmerge in human-being societies again and again.

What I've disucussed in this blog are the good old traditions and customs that our culture is based on.
So, what you have observed currently in Khon Kaen city are modern day behaviours and conduct people take into there lifestyle. I don't think it's a culture. In fact, culture is not material thing but a set of views people carry in their mind to give values to their lives as a humankind, a higher state of being much above animals. Immatterial things cannot be diluted as in the law of physics. Human-beings consistently had purified their minds to live in this world in a peaceful environment as much as possible until hatred, greed and glorification of power engulfed virtueos values in human-beings and that's why the world at one time plunged into the so-called Dark Age.

Noonin c9
It's a change of time, not every house in Bangkok and other places has a small wooden as I had sen the past. In Bangkok and provincial cities, people would install their elaborately designed concrete spirit houses in their compund. Yes, it's a show of status. There are many designs to resemble a Buddhist temple or a Brahmin shrine. Inside a spirit house, you will see a figure made of plaster made to look like a Deva and miniture figures of two elderly persons. In some spirit houses a figure of two of miniture horses were place there as tokens for the spirit to use as a means for travel in the nevr-never land. In the old days, they used a piece small wooden board in certain design and painted red with a line drawing of figure of Deva (supposed to be the guardian spirit of the house) in bronze colour or yellow. The called it "Javed", which became taken into a Thai idiom, "This politician is a "Javed" for some one". It means the same as "This politician is just a pupet for someone to pull the strings". So, you can comment with friends or your wife in Thai that "Nuk karnmueang khon nee pem kae javed thao nun" (¹Ñ¡¡ÒÃàÁ×ͧ¤¹¹Õéà»ç¹à¾Õ§á¤èà¨Çç´à·èÒ¹Ñé¹" or "This politician is just a javed".)

It's not just in KKC, other provinces in Isaan, where people's lives were affected by new ideology in life style and way of life brought in by people from the outside, which include politicians underThaksin's wings who used money to win their hearts. Men from the West (probably, with low cultural standard) who decided to live in Isaan communities with their Thai partners have played their parts in the degradation of mindset in the people there used to keep. People like you who have high level of cultural awareness would notice the degradation of local customs and good manners after mixing with local for a long while.

You know, teaching of cultural values in schools has been less and less during the past ten years or more. I can tell you one fat that Thaksin during his days in power, had never discuss moral values in his public statements in any occassion. His Special Moral Code forThai youngsters on annual Children Day had never meantto promote morality in children. Because he cannot speak out anything that he dismissed as nonesensical or contradictory to whay he was doing. What Thaksin promoted concerned with "cleverness" in competing with others. So morality in Thai society started it downward trend since Thaksin had come into power. Cheating and corruption have been seeping in the minds of government officials and young children became disoriented with moral code their parents have been praticing. As an effect, Thai people in certain locations in Isaan left their age-old moral code in trash cans in their hearts and minds. You would see by yourself that nowadays many people would say, "money first, moral thinking can wait". In terms of social development, it's a dangerous situation.
comment 12
DKO date : 17/06/2009 time : 10.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Noonin C9

I am sure I may not have noticed some small ones but am able to confirm MOST do not seem to have any (large or small). Take my Thai Family who have relatives 4 house in a row. Very Religious but none have Spirit Houses in their yards. Nor have most in their soi or adjoining sois (some have, I hasten to add but not the large majority)

Inside their houses they all have a Buddha alter with icons etc. (forgive me for not knowing the official correct description no offence meant). when monks walk down the street early in the morning most will offer food.

--
Expresso C11,

Not sure of the relevance of whether a man is rich and powerful or not as to whether it is correct to Wai when meeting someone. Most seem to do it when meeting anybody and wishing to acknowledge them or say hello.


Speaking for MYSELF. The first thing I did when I knew I was visiting Thailand was go on the internet and find out about important or key Thai customs. The last thing I wished to do was be rude or disrespectful unintentionally. I then learnt of Thai Fever and bought a copy.

To be honest I always try to find out how to say Hello and Thank you before I visit a country as I feel it is a basic necessity and politeness.

I personally find it very hard to feel that barely any foreigners would have a problem with feeling awkward about attempting to Wai. None I have ever seen or know have. It seems obvious to me nobody will condemn a well intended but technically imperfect (or unnecessary) attempt.

No attempt would I feel, seem discourteous or somewhat ignorant in my view It takes but 5 seconds to learn to do a minimum Wai and is surely worth the effort to be polite in the manner that is customary in another person's own country.

JMHO (nothing personal)

Regarding Ian Wai'ing I feel sure he both knows how to Wai and has done so for many years. I feel you are being unnecessarily mischievous as I am sure you have no factual knowledge of Ian's use of traditional Thai customs
comment 11
expresso date : 17/06/2009 time : 02.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

When I was first here in Thailand in 1969, I was taken to a huge compound where the honorary Chairman of my father-in-law's factory lived. He was a powerful man, I reckon, but I didn't give a hoot. I did not know how to wai. Years after that, I still did not know how to wai because I felt awkward.

Hey, today, I know how to wai and don't ever feel awkward. I think that when farangs have learned how to wai, they should be treated as less-farangish! I doubt Ian will ever learn!
comment 10
happyjack date : 16/06/2009 time : 20.20

D.K.O..all your points Ive noticed to,Ive also noticed my Wife evades all my questions on Thai Topics, especially Religion. Thai Tradition she loves to enlighten,and World views,she doesn't shut up.When we were young Father in Law only allowed Him and Me to wash the Spirit House,i was the Electric Man.There are more Catholics in the Central Plains,and Christmas invites are commonplace.
comment 9
noonin date : 16/06/2009 time : 19.30
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

DKO comment 8

Are you sure that the homes do not have a small ,wooden house, nothing elaborate.
The big shrines are costly and the ritual to consecrate them is very expensive; I know ,I have one .
A Brahman priest must consecrate the spirit house, a lavish feast is provided and many family guests are invited. It is almost as expensive as a wedding.
My parent in laws had a simple platform on a post for years, it looked like a bird table, offerings were made to it regularly. They waited until they could afford a large manufactured one, the major expense was not the spirit house it was the ceremony.
It is a status symbol and those who can afford their own house are likely to have a large spirit house.
Krajog please correct me, I am surmising.
comment 8
DKO date : 16/06/2009 time : 16.24
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Krajog.

I found this Blog very interesting and informative. I knew some of it from a book "Thai Fever" which I bought before I first came to Thailand 3 years ago as i wished to do my best not to offend and show appropriate respect for Thai culture.

I need to be honest and say, I see up here in Isaan and lot of the cultures you describe as not being strictly observed or strictly carried out universally by the majority of people up here (even though I believe them to be important in Thai culture).

A few examples. Most houses in Khon Kaen City do not have Spirit Houses in their gardens or yards (many do but certainly nothing like most), People do not seem too bothered about feet usage or rules of what parts of the body that can be touched or not and by whom.

Intent, seems more relevant than deed on these cultural aspects (I do not refer to allowances made for Foreigners (which I understand) but between Thais.

I see much more universal and strong observance of Buddhist and religious Thai culture up here though.

Your article gives (me anyway) the impression most of these cultural activities are "the norm" for most Thais but my observations are some have very different levels of adherence.

I am not suggesting some do not follow all you say, but in KKC most seem to have diluted their cultural ways maybe Western culture, Western ways and Western media have to take much of the blame.

I wonder if it that Isaan is different to most other areas on Thai cultural etiquette OR maybe, its because I live in Khon Kaen City and that has more diluted customs than the rest of Isaan and its villages and small towns outside it.

I have no idea. I see, but cannot explain why the culture you describe is not more closely followed by so many. I would be interested in your views.
comment 7
happyjack date : 16/06/2009 time : 12.12

Thank You.Is the Heel Sitting a No No Generally,ive noticed my wife Tut Tuts when she sees the Young do so,but never if the Elderly do it.Just one moment please,is her way of avoiding a reply.No doubt you know them all.!!.
comment 6
krajog date : 15/06/2009 time : 22.52
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/oldguard

happyjack c5
I spell krub by using K because the sound of the consonant in Thai alphabet is the same as KING. There is no exact rule in using English alphabet to spell Thai words. Yes, you can spell any Thai word the way you like if it makes the same sound. You spell Ferang while me and other people spell Farang. No one cares.
comment 5
happyjack date : 15/06/2009 time : 19.34

I can remember when if a young Person Squatted Down On his Heels,Grandfather would tell them,this House does not allow slovenly ways. Krub as you spell it has me fooled,Ka,O.K,but CRUB as id say it has just got me Blank LooksDo you mean Crap as Ferangs say it
comment 4
krajog date : 15/06/2009 time : 12.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/oldguard

notdisappointed c2, bzzzbee c3

Thanks ND, I've done just that.
Bzzzzbee, I'll do it as suggested, thanks
comment 3
bzzzzzBee date : 15/06/2009 time : 12.51
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/beehive

K. Krajog .... may i suggest a topic for your future blog .... HUMILITY & MODESTY IN THE THAI CONTEXT. Perhaps our friends can learn a thing or two about how Asian mind ticks and perhaps be respectful to the surroundings ..... even if the ills of societies are aplenty
comment 2
notdisappointed date : 15/06/2009 time : 10.29

christybitterawet, you have a disgusting personality and character. If you don't have proper etiquette and manners do you have at least any semblance of propriety whatso ever?

K. Krajog I suggest you delete its post No. 1 & 2 to remove its stench from the blog.
comment 1
krajog date : 15/06/2009 time : 09.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/oldguard

To all readers,
The purpose of this blog is to discuss the standard traditions, customs and etiquette well-cultured Thai people have practiced for a long time and have become social norms for this country.

Every country or society has its own weaknesses, discussing them in sociological framework in a constructive way is best. It serves nothing in using sarcastic and vulgar words to talk about bad things in any society.

I leave bad practices or immoral activities in any community out of this blog.
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