• natee
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Natee's Blog
No longer a journalist....still love writing.
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee
Tuesday , September 11 , 2007
Thai Names, Thai-ness and the Necessity of Conservatism
Posted by natee , Reader : 1192 , 10:12:25   | Category : General Interest  
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I was once a very liberal Thai person, but as I grow older, I suddenly feel that there’s no need to be liberal, for Thais are liberal enough. This is why I find myself suddenly siding with people I once considered dinosaurs. Perhaps, wisdom does come with age and the so-called dinosaurs at the Culture Ministry might be wiser than we think, after all.

Even after reading a brilliantly argued article on Thai-ness by William J. Klausner (cited below), I still found myself considering whether a drive to conserve Thai nicknames might be necessary. To look at whether we should be as drastic as to ask Thais to use Thai nicknames, we might have to look slightly deeper into the subject of many Thais’ object of affection.

Thais idolise Westerners. To many Thais, they are gods from foreign lands who are richer, better looking and arguably more intelligent. Most of us keenly listen to their advise and offer them far more respect than some actually deserve. Their language, culture, economy, political system, and society, according to some Thais, are so much more desirable than ours.

It’s the same with the Thai language. You will see numerous Thai students come over to the UK and suddenly forget that they’re Thai. It’s almost amazing to see them struggle to find Thai words after less than a year here, and even before their English has improved to an acceptable level. In other words, they become linguistically challenged, unable to speak in their mother tongue as well as failing to speak English properly. Embarrassing really, but to them, as long as they’ve forgotten Thai, they are more Western.

In other words, even if we asked Thais not to use Western nicknames, many would still use it. On the other hand, if we encouraged the use of Western nicknames, Thais would flock like sheep to adopt those Western nicknames. We are currently absorbing Western culture at an alarming rate, and the idolisation of the West which has reached far into even the Thai provinces are partly to blame.

There’s absolutely no harm in enforcing a little, or a lot of, patriotic conservatism in Thailand, because half the country would rush to become citizens of the West, given the opportunity. In my experience, there’s little Thai patriotism or pride left, and I cherish every rare meeting with a Thai who truly loves Thailand.

One of the ways to push the message to a very large group of Thai people is to display extreme conservatism because this is the only way to make some listen. The Culture Ministry, whether intentionally or not, has achieved this through the criticism of the use of foreign nicknames. Those who are proud to be Thai will realise it’s more than about nicknames. Those who aren’t will at least be shamed into feeling that they should perhaps be more patriotic.

Don’t worry, we’ll still have foreign nicknames, too much cleavage, disrespect to elders, and trendy Western-minded Thais who tell us that conservatism and blind patriotism is archaic. But for the sake of Thailand, let a small voice always speak against that, however quietly or loudly.

Also see William J. Klausner’s excellent article on an opposite view:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/09/10/opinion/opinion_30048359.php


Read comment

comment 24
Ian date : 16/09/2007 time : 17.26
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

As you are probably aware, at the moment I am in Hong Kong with my Chinese friends. Now the Chinese also adopt English names, not just because it is fashionable but also as a curtesy to westerners who have problems with Chinese names.
So I, in the light of this blog, had a discussion with my fiends, firstly the names are not given by the parents but are chosen by the kids as they grow up. Secondly they choose genuine names, Connie, Ruth, Mark, Shirley, Fiona, etc. It seems they do use Chinese nicknames as well but only within the family circle.
The Adopted English names become so firmly adopted that they even become used on official documents. They are also the one's used in public situations.
comment 23
redandwhitestripes date : 16/09/2007 time : 17.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/reallifethailand

Some excellent points Natee.

My thoughts are that maybe it doesn't matter all that much with nicknames, since many Thais seem to change them at will anyway. I feel it's the 'real' names that are important and they seem to be as secure as ever.

I wouldn't even label it as conservative to keep Thai names, they are individual and strike a chord with westerners who struggle to pronounce them.

Besides, as Ian has pointed out, many parents may think they are giving their kids a "cool" western nickname but actually most kids named "plop" or even "first" or "bigboss" would simply be laughed out of school in the west.

I wanted to call my kid “Dylan” but we also wanted him to have some Thai identity, so the name on his passport is “Dawin” , the closest Thai equivalent we could find!

Natee seems right that some people think of westerners as smarter, more fashionable etc. Sadly those feelings are misplaced. I do think a typical westerner is more exposed to critical thinking and therefore is better at detecting BS, but the admiration in general is unwarranted.

I personally wish England would adopt some of Thailand’s conservative policies in some areas, such as immigration control.

Finally, Flybike don't apologise for your English. It is good and you make your points well :-)

comment 22
Trirat date : 16/09/2007 time : 06.35
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Windy, not making fun of you; hitting on you.

comment 21
windy date : 14/09/2007 time : 15.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/lisnaree
Lisnaree Vichitsorasatra

Trirat did you just made fun of my name? I'll never forgive you
comment 20
Pondering date : 13/09/2007 time : 09.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pondering

Natee....and we need more open-minded individuals. Being open-minded allows ones to be able to explore the options out there.
comment 19
Trirat date : 13/09/2007 time : 06.41
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/trirat

Ian, little boys and girls in your village may be called Poop and Fart, but children of hi-so are called things like Windy.

comment 18
natee date : 13/09/2007 time : 06.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

Poomjai (comment 12): I think how some Thais get upset when non-Thais criticise them is more a reflection of their insecurity than their patriotism. Even among those who are most embarassed to be Thai, their passports still say they ARE Thai, and there's nothing they can do about it. Ha!
comment 17
Ian date : 12/09/2007 time : 23.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

natee, with a 25k limit on comment pictures you must be joking:-)
From my village here are a list of some boy's names: Ooa, Day, Man, Doy, Sang, Doyn
and Girls names: Play, Prayer, Muck, Am, Month
comment 16
natee date : 12/09/2007 time : 23.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

Pondering: And the (usually) open-mindedness of people on this blog is what makes it a place I can keep returning to! Can you imagine how much this country would develop if the discourse were always kept at this level??
Ian: Seriously, take pictures. I want to see what 'Fart' and 'Poop' look like. With their consent for publication, of course... ;)
comment 15
Pondering date : 12/09/2007 time : 23.16
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pondering

I think the main reasons some parents name their kid an English name is because they are afraid to be outdated. I have no comment about this, but I do not think we can blame them on that. Our world is spinning and getting smaller. Unfortunately, for some odd reasons, majority of Thai society worships and willing to absorb western influences, considers them *cool.*

Oh..and Natee, I believe there is nothing wrong with being conservative. Some times, it's kind of hard to set a boundary when being too liberal.
comment 14
Ian date : 12/09/2007 time : 23.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Well all I say is that if they must have Farang nicknames, for God sake find out what they mean first. I meant what farang could keep a straight face if introduced to someone called Fart or Poop?
comment 13
Poomjai date : 12/09/2007 time : 22.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Apologies, final sentence should read 'loosening' not 'loosing'!!
comment 12
Poomjai date : 12/09/2007 time : 21.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

That's more like it Natee, su su!

Actually I am broadly on your side. There are a lot of appealing things about Thai culture and custom and as I indicated in anther blog, I wish that the west could return somewhat to traditional moral and family values and respect for authority.

You can't stop the globalisation of influences as divers as MTV and Luis Vuitton. But I do sense that many of the Thais I talk to are genuinely proud to be Thai. Hence the raised heckles at any suggestion of criticism.

So while I would not whole-heartedly agree that Thais are losing their love for Thailand. I do tend to have a lot of sympathy with your aversion to farang nicknames. I can see that point that it may simply reflect a popular trend among youngsters. But if it is symbolic of a much deeper loosing of Thai moral values then, like you, I agree that it may just be the tip of the iceberg.
comment 11
natee date : 12/09/2007 time : 19.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

GGrass: I don't lament anything mate, except from the branding of conservatives, or those who want to maintain Thai culture, as outdated and antiquated people with no brains. I don't mind people with English nicknames either, as long as their parents know what the beauty of Thai culture is. My sister has an English nickname, but our family is very conscious of maintaining nice Thai traditions within our household.
comment 10
windy date : 12/09/2007 time : 10.06
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/lisnaree
Lisnaree Vichitsorasatra

thai names are cool, I always wanted to be called Mali :) My father told me if he changed my name to Thai nick name it would be Guitar..

to me nicknames aren't important as much as real names and most Thais haven't changed their real names to english names yet. so it's not a worrying issue to me
comment 9
GGrass date : 12/09/2007 time : 08.09
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

natee: you lament about increasingly frequent naming of children with 'foreign' nicknames. May i ask, what 'foreign' nicknames you are so worried about?

you mean 'Ball'? or 'Cherry'? or 'Benz'?

don't worry mate, they are NOT foreign nicknames.

they are 'Bon', 'Chu-rry'' and 'Ben~' (i can't quite get it right in english. but you know what i mean.)


comment 8
natee date : 12/09/2007 time : 01.46
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

Poomjai: Haha, every point I want to argue is still sitting there in my original text. If it doesn't show, it means either that I didn't write it well enough, or that the reader didn't read carefully enough. Besides, I rather dislike chicken or egg arguments...sometimes feels like knocking my head against a brick wall.
comment 7
Poomjai date : 11/09/2007 time : 23.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Natee,

Have you ever heard the military adage 'no plan survives contact with the enemy'? Perhaps the same can be said of blogs! Fight your corner man and argue your point.
comment 6
natee date : 11/09/2007 time : 22.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

Once again, Flybike, Pondering, Ian...nice, thoughtful comments. Thank you.
Perhaps you've all demonstrated the very point I tried to put forward in my blog. There's enough liberalism (or at least semi-liberalism) in Thailand going around already. I don't think it would hurt if I took a conservative stand from time to time. ;)
comment 5
Ian date : 11/09/2007 time : 22.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

A culture which does not evolve stagnates, this has been discussed by Trirat. The problem which Thailand faces is how and in which direction to evolve. Thailand like many developing countries is being pulled in many directions, American culture, European, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, all of these influences are evident. Should it follow one trend or create a synthesis of its own. I would like to see the latter, thus Thailand would modernise in a uniquely Thai way. At the moment the people in control seem determined to look backwards rather than forwards.

I don't mind kids and people having Englick nicknames, but I do wish they woul find out what the words mean first. Some of the names in my village are "party, ploy, man, jeep, off and a classic one 'fart".
comment 4
Pondering date : 11/09/2007 time : 21.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pondering

Natee: Nice article, as always!

I also read the link provided. Personally, I'm not sure how much I agree with the *Perhaps, wisdom does come with age and the so-called dinosaurs at the Culture Ministry might be wiser than we think, after all.* The wisdom though comes with experience, and well, most experienced individuals are older. I'm saying this respectfully, some elders are pretty stupid. Sadly, Thai society does not accept talking back, talking down and talking bad to the elders. See, what is happening?

No, the Culture Ministry most of the time does not act like dinosaurs because dinosaurs had lived and died a long long time ago. This Cultural Ministry acts like a something I don't even know what to call. They do not think progressively. I've read a great piece of an interview with Niwat Kongpien (a famous nude critics) talking about arts and his thoughts on this Ministry. I'm sorry I do not have a link to share with you, but man, what a comment. It's not that I don't want to reserve Thai cultures, but I believe we have to do it correctly. For the Culture Ministry to spend some times worrying about nicknames, there are other important things to be worried about.

This is just my two cents, but a nickname is like a A.K.A.
comment 3
Flybike date : 11/09/2007 time : 19.12
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/flybike

Your topic hit a nerve inside me.

There is another point, Natee, which really annoys me to speak about culture. I will give you what you can find in the NATION, May 03, 1994- “We must stop sticking too much to a written constitution, which no matter how good it is has proved a failure. We must give importance to our culture and history.”

The background: May be you remember that after 1992 amendments to the charter should being brought forward because the charter was one of the reason for the uprising. Now Chuan’s election in 1992 left him mandated to make further changes to improve the democratic structure of government. But with the senate still filled by NPKC chosen men, amendments couldn’t pass without the army’s accord. (That reminds me very much to the new Senate by the way.) They would also block any attempt to change the rules of amendment. In March 1994, Chuan approached Prem for support for his proposed amendment but got a slap into his face. Normally the military senators seldom showed up for senate meetings. But the day after Chuan met Prem, nearly every senator was there and, together with the lower house opposition, voted down Chuan’s first amendment. Then they proposed something which was essentially the 1978 charter, which had enabled Prem and the military to hold power for so long. As Chuan the old right wingers made remarks that evoked 1976, Samak called Chuan’s amendment to lese majesté, because they altered the structure of the government designed by Rama V. Poonsak Wannapong said the changes implied that the MPs could better represent the poepole than the king. And he said MPs were dirty and corrupt and that military coups were justified. “We must stop sticking too much to a written constitution, which no matter how good it is has proved a failure. We must give importance to our culture and history.”

Culture, history and sentiments of the people are misused to serve the interest of some ruling few. And not only history and culture. We can find the same in Sangha / Buddhism.

How can this make our young people proud and interested in history and culture if the only feel it as a tool to suppress everything which is not in line with the will of some few.

The often prayed unity is only based on suppression, not on discussion and acceptance of divers opinions and cultures as well as on evolution of culture. This will be the reason for missing reconciliation and not the fact that people are fed up with the feudal Thai system and unable to run away are fleeing into soap operas, foreign habit adoring and dreaming instead of working.

And if you look into the blog many foreigners are complaining that Thai are lying. This is just the mirroring of the ruling class. They are just copying because they believe they need it to survive. The bad news is, that the culture is protecting the ruling when lying while the poor will end up in prison.

If history and culture is full of lies what is the consequence? May be most do not know it, but they feel it somehow. And this makes them loosing the respect. History and culture is now something to make the tourist spending money in Thailand.
comment 2
natee date : 11/09/2007 time : 17.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

Flybike: You make so many excellent points in your comment that I can only thank you for posting the comment!
comment 1
Flybike date : 11/09/2007 time : 17.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/flybike

Natee, After bloody May 92 the democrats had been called „Un-Thai“ or „Non-Thai“ because they did not want to follow without any question what the bosses said. Now everything which is referring to human rights, freedom of speech, equality of rights to everybody, democracy and so on is branded WESTERN. This is the only reason why I am NOT conservative.

I could cry watching the children just doing the necessary few hours of traditional instrument, dance or whatsoever instead they are consuming Japanese, Korean (not western by the way) and US VCD, songs, Comics and so on.

But it has an old tradition to brand people who fight for the a.m. idols communists or nowadays westerner. I love Thai traditional values but similar as religion, the traditions must be seen in the context of the times and societies. One should understand the history and reasons behind tradition. And this is the problem. In Thailand there is no real open discussion of history, tradition and political development.

200 years ago Thailand needed a strong absolutistic warrior monarch and a strong military. During the last century still strong military forces were needed but already the time of diplomats instead of worriers had started. In this century the wars are economic wars. We need economic soldiers who can run the country in a global world community where streams of money and goods are defining a countrie’s wellbeing.

And militaries have a totally different work to do. They have to integrate themselves into larger international units, communicate perfectly, and harmonize themselves with international warriors in order to avoid local wars, and to put the country into a military union which will not be beaten as when the Japanese invaded Thailand during WWII.

Now tradition must be newly defined. Language is a part of the tradition, similar to names. It is stupid to use Western nick names because Thai have enough nice nicknames. And it can confuse people who start to talk to the person. Is he Thai or not? But without discussion WHY Thai should be proud the people will not understand why they should be proud on names.

Look at the names of places, palaces, bridges and so on. There are only royal names. So a normal Thai must think: I am a normal Thai, I have no value. We can only be proud on our royals. And that is not my family, me or my son. And we will never be able to be good enough so a street will named after him.

It is strange that our best people, many of them traditionalists in some sense, got millions of honours around the world …. But few or none within Thailand. So who can be a pattern for a young Thai person who has no royal blood? The only one left is the local superstar or the foreign superstar.

Please excuse my poor English, but I never studied or worked in an English speaking country. Nevertheless I understand enough to read English publications. And when I started after the coup to do it more deeply, I was surprised, that many Thai scientists, journalists and writer prefer to publish in English. This is absolutely unacceptable. This is bleeding out the Thai intellectuality. And this is what I worry much more then English nicknames.

Sorry I was jumping from one to another point. But I would like to write 10 pages more because it makes me angry how tradition is defined in Thailand. We should make clear to the world that Thailand CAN be proud. Look around Thailand:

We have one of the best systems in South East Asia I believe but it will not stop me from trying to improve it into a system which fits with this century.

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