• natee
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Natee's Blog
No longer a journalist....still love writing.
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee
Wednesday , August 1 , 2007
Studying in the UK (2) : The Dreaded Times Good University Guide
Posted by natee , Reader : 1168 , 07:33:02   | Category : Studying in the UK  
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Your first duty to your good parents after you’ve decided that you are both intelligent and responsible enough to dump Bt1.5 million in the UK is to find an English university which will give you your money’s worth. Unfortunately, in this vain and shallow world, your money’s worth will not only be measured by how much knowledge you gain, but also by the reputation your university of choice will provide you in the future.

We are all suckers for university rankings and the market has been happy to oblige, with a myriad number of sometimes rather questionable university league tables. The Times Good University Guide (TGUG) is accepted as the King of the UK University League tables, followed at a distance by The Guardian’s University Guide. As the book editors claim in the 2007 edition, ‘When the Times Good University Guide first appeared almost 15 years ago, it helped to explore the myth that any British degree was as good as any other’.

To cut to the chase, go online and try to understand the rankings table. Then apply to Oxford or Cambridge in any of the subjects they offer. You really don’t need to read any further. These are the only two universities a Thai person will recognize immediately, regardless of your area of study. Their reputation will immediately class you as an intellectual giant and your future is pretty much assured.

If you are still reading, it’s because of one of two reasons. Oxbridge doesn’t offer a degree subject you want to study, or you simply aren’t qualified enough to get into either one of them. I’m afraid that things get more complicated for you from here on.

You pretty much have two choices to go on from now. Your first is to look down the rankings and pick from the rest of the top ten universities. Yes, this is what you would do if you are irredeemably shallow, vain, and pretty much guaranteed to waste your parent’s money.

Your second choice is to do what any diligent student would, and research your area of study carefully. Pretty much any respectable UK university will be home to a department which boasts lecturers with world class knowledge, and often offering higher quality degrees than even Oxbridge. One way is to look at the ‘research assessment exercise’ (RAE) which rates the department from 1 to 5*. If a department gets a 5*, the highest rating, half or more of the research submitted to the UK funding councils are of international excellence.

To you and me, that means more people world-wide talk about the research that department produces and accept the scholars in that department to be world-class. It means very famous lecturers will be sharing their cutting-edge research with you. Note though that there are ways to influence the RAE, which the departments are very knowledgeable about.

There are several more criterions in selecting a good university and I’ll share the less technical side with you in my next blog, but consider this exercise your first challenge in choosing to do a degree in the UK. If you’re not capable enough to point out the best departments in your area of study at the snap of the finger when asked, you pretty much don’t belong here. I consider this the most rigorous test of your ability to study abroad.

You will have miserably failed the test though, if someone asks you why you went to your chosen university and you reply, ‘because it is ranked in the top ten of the Times Good University Guide’. So what, really!


Read comment

comment 27
natee date : 07/08/2007 time : 23.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

Kenny7: Well said. Like everything else in a developing nation, education presents a bit of a vicious cycle - as you've indicated. I just hope to put a different perspective out in the public and perhaps perceptions might change, however gradually...
comment 26
Kenny7 date : 07/08/2007 time : 18.51

It is a really good blog but I think most of Thais do not care what you are talking about. When you are in Thailand, they just care such familiar names as Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL and King's college and care if you were studying abroad. Used to ask many students in the UK, I found that most of them just go there for DEGREE and being tagged 'studied abroad'. Therefore, I do not think they would be bothered looking up in RAE. However, I do not think those kids are problematic but grown-ups in Thailand are. Those kids, in my opinion, do not think they need to develop their own qualities as most of Thais do not judges people by core values really.
comment 25
khamala date : 06/08/2007 time : 01.37
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/khamala

haha, I wont forget about that! I might cut back on my weekly shopping list and buy you a beer chang -a BIG one, of course ;-)
comment 24
Ian date : 05/08/2007 time : 23.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Kha, while you are knocking them back in St Tropez remember you owe your humble proof reader a drink:-)
comment 23
khamala date : 05/08/2007 time : 21.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/khamala

@catch22: well, I knew that someone would call me jalous. as I said, these unis are EXCELLENT only a fool could doubt that. I have nothing against rich people (ironically I am writing this while sitting in Monaco at a very good and rich friend's place:-) ... but I study political science and I enjoy people around me who are really interested in critical social analysis etc and who do not study for career purposes only. my experiences are that people from a REALLY rich backround do often care less about social inequalities than fancy leisure time sports. thanks natee for virtually defending me while I was having some coktails in st. tropez ;-)
comment 22
Ian date : 04/08/2007 time : 16.52
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

catch22, I must diasagee with you here:-) I can quote an identical hospital experience to yours which my wife encountered here, only in her case the visitor was her uncle-in-law a very Senior Hospital consultant.
I think the real difference is in attitudes. My wife's family are very well connected, her father's younger brother was a member of the House of Lords and a personal advisor to the Queen, her father's cousin was the Archbishop of Cantabury. Yet my wife has always played down these connections, never used them to her advantage.
A Thai would play on them for all they were worth.
comment 21
catch22 date : 04/08/2007 time : 13.46
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

weerayut, whilst what you say is often the way it is in the west - I'm afraid you are wrong if you think this is the way in Thailand. Thailand plays great heed to hierarchy otherwise parents wouldn't spend thousands of dollars trying to get their kids into western universities. I do agree with you that the real quality is 'in you', but employers here see it totally different. I'll give you a personal example of how the hierarchy system in action. two years ago I went into hospital for an emergency operation. Post recovery, I don't think I was treated very well by the nursing staff, they were slow to come when called, looked miserable, never spoke whilst carrying out post-op procedure etc. Two days later I was visited by A Thai doctor a personal friend of mine, who is regarded as eminent by the hospital staff. It was a personal visit, not business. We played chess, shared some food and generally had a pleasant time laughing and joking during the visit. After the visit the attitude of all nusring staff completely changed. They suddenly began smiling, they came within seconds when called. They spoike frequently and politely usually asking me if everything was alright. You see to them, this visit by a personal friend who was a doctor had suddenly elevated me to a new slot in their hierarchial scale. It's hypocritical and I milked it for all it was worth. Now in the west this would have made little difference as no-one really regards a doctor any different from a first class plumber. They both have a trade and they both help people.....I've needed a plumber more often than a doctor, so who knows what my hierarchial scale would look like to a Thai!
comment 20
weerayut date : 04/08/2007 time : 12.10
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/weerayut

The real quality is in "you". People judge a person by their impression -- the quality or the friendship he or she shows. They don't ask for university certificates or the university ranks.

Natee, you are right. May I join you to say "So what, really!"?
comment 19
catch22 date : 04/08/2007 time : 09.27
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

Natee - OK if you really want to disect a point, she did say (since I am not rich but lazy the excellent unis wouldnt have accepted me anyways, besides who wants to spend his/her time with spoilt wankers?). This certainly sounds like sour grapes to me, inferring that excellent universities are a bunch of spoiled wankers.....but she's entitled to her hang ups the same as everyone else.
comment 18
natee date : 03/08/2007 time : 20.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

catch22: If you mean khamala's comment (#8), she never said anything about Oxbridge! She said 'excellent unis'...and that could have meant any university in the UK or in the world, including the one she was accepted to as a doctoral student. I don't need exact quotations, but I'm not a fan of misrepresentation. I'm sure you feel the same way.
comment 17
catch22 date : 03/08/2007 time : 11.06
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

Ian - You seem to have decided the best way to seek out a university education.

Natee - why do you want 'exact' quotations? Surely if a person infers that Oxbridge contains nothing but a bunch of spoiled wankers, this isakin to saying it sucks....isn't it?

Count - believe it or not, my bagel is actually without religion. However, for your information I'm fine and my favourite is smoked salmon and cream cheese. Hope you are well too.

Pomjuk - are you OBSESSED with sex?
comment 16
Ian date : 03/08/2007 time : 05.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

natee, I think it boils down to this, if I may take my son as an example. Academically he was better off selecting Birmingham and then Guildford for his degree and Masters. Socially and culturally statuswise, he would have done far better to go to Oxbridge. An Oxbridge degree has implications beyond the simple academic ones.
comment 15
Pomjuk date : 03/08/2007 time : 01.51
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

Ian: If that Beigel award is for sexuality creativity and naughtiness I should get the first price.
comment 14
natee date : 03/08/2007 time : 01.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

count_von_dindang: I've read and reread the blog and the comments, and struggle to find where anyone has said that Oxbridge 'sucks'. I actually agreed with you by urging everyone to go to Oxbridge, if possible!
comment 13
Ian date : 03/08/2007 time : 00.49
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I propose that the Beigel award goes to Pomjuk for his diligent work in this field
http://www.sexscience.org/awards/index.php?category_id=428
comment 12
Pomjuk date : 02/08/2007 time : 21.04
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

WhAt da hEck is a JewIsH beiGel? Is the the one with lox and cream cheese. In fact I think all bagels are Jewish regardless.
comment 11
count_von_dindang date : 02/08/2007 time : 20.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/countvondindang

for my money where else can u find wittgenstein, newton, hawkins, betrand russell?! u must be crazy to call oxbridge sucks, u jealous people. ano? how r u catch22? u have your jewish beigel today?
comment 10
catch22 date : 02/08/2007 time : 16.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

My oh my Khamala, you really do have a morbid jealousy of people with money don't you? First it was the old rich asshole and now it's the spoiled wankers at uni. I'm sorry if you have been let down in life and fully understand your rationalisation about using crappy universities, because oxbridge would be unnatainable.
comment 9
natee date : 01/08/2007 time : 22.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

khamala: That's the attitude to take! Wish more thought like you!
count: Do i sound that bitter!? Thank you for your kind wishes as regards Oxbridge, but in a few months, I'll be ineligible to apply for any degree in my field of expertise....except perhaps a post-doc? As for the Democrats, thanks, but no thanks!
comment 8
khamala date : 01/08/2007 time : 22.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/khamala

I have chosen my university by a different method: (since I am not rich but lazy the excellent unis wouldnt have accepted me anyways, besides who wants to spend his/her time with spoilt wankers?) I have simply read many recent books on what I am interested in and have sent letters to the authors if they would like to supervise me (however crappy the uni was), to me it's more important that I work with people who are interested in my field of reserach than rankings. people tend to forget that they are not assets but human beings, and in my case, happy without great jobs ;-)
comment 7
count_von_dindang date : 01/08/2007 time : 22.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/countvondindang

have u been rejected natee to oxbrdige? u sound so bitter! i think you have to give credits to them too. the rankings aside oxbridge do offer good course like PPE for the upperclass. but ian is right on the euro when he said that other schools r better in other subjects too. like nottingham for medicine. i Have a colleague who studied there. But don;t be sad natee. you will be able to get into oxbrdige one day and join the democrat party! dobry!
comment 6
natee date : 01/08/2007 time : 19.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/natee

Ian: Certainly didn't overlook that point. To repeat myself: "...apply to Oxford or Cambridge in any of the subjects they offer. You really don’t need to read any further."
comment 5
Ian date : 01/08/2007 time : 18.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

pomjuk, yes a much more realistic figure, I also checked:-) Should we also ignore, peace, art and literary awards, concentrate just on science awards.
comment 4
Pomjuk date : 01/08/2007 time : 17.46
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

30 seems too high, so I've just double checked there are 9 Nobel Prize winners from my school.
comment 3
Ian date : 01/08/2007 time : 16.46
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Natee obviously knows his way around the university scene. Particularly in the sciences the department's rating is more important than the university.
My son was offered a place at both Oxford and Cambridge, he rejected both in favour of Birmingham. Why? Because he wanted to study electronics and Birmingham has a leading edge department in electronics. He did his Masters at Surrey university, again Surrey has a world class reputation in satellite systems.
To a lay person he may seem less than an Oxbridge scholar , but to an engineer or employer he is superior.
This is one point that Natee has perhaps overlooked. A western employer know the facts about our universities, a Thai employer does not and is still impressed by a big name university. In Thailand prestige is more important than ability.
comment 2
Pomjuk date : 01/08/2007 time : 15.16
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

There were 3 Thai students at my undergrad school far out in Long Island, NY. One was an American born so he doesn’t really count as a foreign student, he just spoke very little bit Thai. My graduate school in Manhattan got the most Nobel price winners in the world when I went there, their were over 30. I’m not sure about now. Gotta be more than that by now.
comment 1
Pondering date : 01/08/2007 time : 08.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pondering

In my experience, sadly to say, I've known too many people out there working on their masters even who have chosen certain degrees and/ or college because of where the college stands or because someone have told them so or even worst, there are huge populations of Thais in the same zipcode. I'm not saying all Thais who study aboard or consider studying aboard are suckers, but hey really (just like what I've mentioned in your previous blog,) majority goes overseas just to be able to come back and brag about their overseas life. It is unfortunate that many kids nowadays simply just don't know what they want exactly. Such a waste of money in my dictionary.
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