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Sunday , July 26 , 2009

Will USS Kitty Hawk be a Gift of Greek's Horse from the US to India?

Posted by Piset , Reader : 462 , 15:28:04

The talks have been circling around about India's probable acquisition of the decommissioned US super aircraft carrier, USS Kitty Hawk. With recent visit to India by US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, rumours have been flying that, the US might even attach USS Kitty Hawk as a gift or bonus to India on the $100 billion arm deal finalized rcently between the US and India. In any case, unless, the Indian government succumbed to the opposing opinions from its people, it may be is on the way to owning and operating this 81700 tons super aircraft carrier in the near future. Opponents of the acquisition of USS Kitty Hawk pointed out that, getting this warship from the US maybe something equivalent to the gift of the Giant Wooden Horse from Greek to the Trojans. It would force India to become an unwiling underling of the US due to its needs from maintenance, technical knowhows, management skills and replacemetn parts including the airplanes weapons and radar systems to be installed and to be operated on this huge ship. The design of the ship with conventional fuel powering could yet be another problems for India to own this vessel. I am not sure how many percentage of India's national fuel consumption USS Kitty Hawk would need to keep it in operation. Judging fom the current real or imaginary possible enemies of India, the USS Kitty Hawk would be little helps for India against its neighbors accross the Himalayas or over the Cashmere areas. Perhaps, if the US allowed, India can earn plenty of income from USS Kitty Hawk, if it simply dismantle it and sell the parts and pieces from this famous warship as suveniors to collectors.

The talks have been circling around about India's probable acquisition of the decommissioned US super aircraft carrier, USS Kitty Hawk. With recent visit to India by US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, rumours have been flying that, the US might even attach USS Kitty Hawk as a gift or bonus to India on the $100 billion arm deal finalized rcently between the US and India. In any case, unless, the Indian government succumbed to the opposing opinions from its people, it may be is on the way to owning and operating this 81700 tons super aircraft carrier in the near future.

Opponents of the acquisition of USS Kitty Hawk pointed out that, getting this warship from the US maybe something equivalent to the gift of the Giant Wooden Horse from Greek to the Trojans. It would force India to become an unwiling underling of the US due to its needs from maintenance, technical knowhows, management skills and replacemetn parts including the airplanes weapons and radar systems to be installed and to be operated on this huge ship.

The design of the ship with conventional fuel powering could yet be another problems for India to own this vessel. I am not sure how many percentage of India's national fuel consumption USS Kitty Hawk would need to keep it in operation.

Judging fom the current real or imaginary possible enemies of India, the USS Kitty Hawk would be little helps for India against its neighbors accross the Himalayas or over the Cashmere areas.

Perhaps, if the US allowed, India can earn plenty of income from USS Kitty Hawk, if it simply dismantle it and sell the parts and pieces from this famous warship as suveniors to collectors.

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comment 30
Piset date : 29/07/2009 time : 08.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

Hey, you guys:

Do you remember tht "air craft carrier" that Royal Thai Navy got a few years back? I am just wondering what good it has done for th Navy of Thailand's security since the launching?

I have the same question for India. What would it do with air craft carriers?

If Kitti Hawk is turned into a Floating Theme Park that would sail around the world selling relics from its past as well, that might be the best option, economically for India.

Once, one of my younger brother borrow a lot of money to buy a pistol he claimed to be for the protection of his property. At that time, too, I wonder what property besides a few IOUs in his wallets was that pitol serving protection for.

The same for Kitti Hawk for India!

comment 29
Hermano_Lobo date : 29/07/2009 time : 06.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Expresso-
A moron and drunk like you should look over its shoulder.
When I or one of my 'friends' find you.
Consider yourself, walking dead.
Being a drunk will not be an excuse.

comment 28
expresso date : 29/07/2009 time : 02.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

Alien, with respect to the Hernia's post that you may be quite like him, you better start guarding your behind

comment 27
Hermano_Lobo date : 28/07/2009 time : 06.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Alien,

Looking at your recent posts, I did not realise how much we have in common.

The Indians have been accepting Russian/Soviet technology for quite a while.

A Soviet/Russian Nuclear submarine would be a logical addition.

comment 26
Alien date : 28/07/2009 time : 02.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/alien

The news in the U. S. was that the Indians launched a nuclear POWERED submarine. I haven't heard that it was armed with nuclear misiles. I don't know if the Indians are capable of this yet.

comment 25
Hermano_Lobo date : 28/07/2009 time : 01.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Ian,
Who's to say that unmanned versions do not exist already ?
Do you remember the Ronald Reagan 'Star Wars Initiative ?

During the Second World War the Battleship became obsolete to be replaced by the Aircraft Carrier.

If, God forbid there is a Third World War, might the same thing happen to the Aircraft Carrier, made obsolete by the Hunter Killer Nuclear Submarine ?

comment 24
Ian date : 28/07/2009 time : 00.22
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I suspect that once manned missile capable space stations exist much current armaments will become obsolete.

comment 23
Hermano_Lobo date : 27/07/2009 time : 22.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Piset,

Understanding technology, is not your strongest point, is it ?

comment 22
BangkokRay date : 27/07/2009 time : 11.58

Yuri, #14,
The USS Kittyhawk is likely serviceable today, minus classified communication systems unique to the US Navy. I was at Yokosuka, Japan when the Kittyhawk launched on it's final sailing last year. It is a very functional vessel considering it's age. If the Indians are able tho engineer a new engine for it, it could be a very effective carrier for another 50 years.

comment 21
Alien date : 27/07/2009 time : 09.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/alien

The Chinese "reverse engineer" whatever they cannot steal from spying. If they become the pre-eminant technological force in the world, we are in for a period of stagnation.

comment 20
happyjack date : 27/07/2009 time : 07.11

A floating Corner Shop at Last. 7/11 beware.

comment 19
Piset date : 27/07/2009 time : 06.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

Yuri:

Perhaps your assessment of the Chinese's current lacking of some capabilities is correct. The Japanese had been subjected to that kind of looking down before, so were Taiwanese and Koreans. If you plot the Chinese's current position technologically on a chart and plot where they wre 30 years ago, then draw a line between these two points and extend into the next few decades. Then, you might see something that would be quite scary to certain people in the west.

China's continued strong group leadership with good uses of their technocrats plus the determination for self improvement and add to that the thousands years old "learning culture" in their red blood cells, have and will make its developments practical and sustainable, despite the corruptions and other inevitable problems as we have heard.

I once visited a factory producing the biggest and most efficient 4 color printing machines in Shanghai that I believe was converted from a tank making factory. They were making a lot of things by themselves from the machine pieces to the microprocessors and integrated circuit boards. That's the kind of "industrial culture" in China tht have enable its rapid development of the D-train and rapid rail transportation for both the urban transit and inter city or across the nation traffic.

India has invited China to help them improve the rail transportation system after admitting the efficiency and low cost of the Chinese way of dealing with the rail systems.

comment 18
wch date : 27/07/2009 time : 06.04

Yesterday India launched, a nuke warhead silo mounted submarine.

In fact, if PRC and India collide along the border, India has no chance to win PRC. India has no capability to mobilize ground force and no experience in all-out ground war. PRC people are in this point excellent.

In the past at Vladivostok naval base was the wholesale market of USSR arsenal including the stilts aircraft carrier and major buyer was PRC. Some were given to north Korea too.
I think no Japan or south Korea bought one as the products has no technological value to adopt. They rather build by themselves.
Mother ship AAC is useless and sitting duck without intelligent sister ships such as missiles and destroyer, assualt submarines, and ultra air-defence and firing control system.

comment 17
Hermano_Lobo date : 27/07/2009 time : 04.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

expresso-

You comment on a subject you know nothing about !

comment 16
expresso date : 27/07/2009 time : 01.15
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

"People forget that the Chinese think long term."

It's not by coincidence that they do that! Won't you say that there are certain ideologies that bind them together which the West have lost?

comment 15
expresso date : 27/07/2009 time : 00.50
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

Hermano, do you understand the word "efficiently"?

comment 14
Hermano_Lobo date : 27/07/2009 time : 00.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Comment # 12

Important post.

You obviously understand what is going on Alien?

I expect the Chinese to have that ex-Soviet Carrier, the Varyag, up and running in a couple of years. People forget that the Chinese think long term. They have aquired a couple of Kiev class carriers from Russia. Just for Museum purposes you understand.

Considering the Indian's brilliant ability to keep old equipment going. The USS Kitty Hawk should be a cinch !

comment 13
Hermano_Lobo date : 27/07/2009 time : 00.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Comment # 11

If that is the case expresso how do the carriers and Indian Air Force operate ?

Duh...........

comment 12
Alien date : 27/07/2009 time : 00.15
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/alien

Comment 9 - I would asume that the Chinese must have stolen information on Carriers from the U. S. if they are going to try to operate one on their own.

One of the latest (in a long line of) stories was that a Chinese - American citizen was just convicted of stealing technical information from Boeing, where he was employed, and giving it to the Chinese. The Chinese have accused the U. S. government of fabricating the story and the evidence due to anti-chinese bias. It's funny, but it seems that even if they are American citizens, the Chinese in the U. S. are only too happy to give any info they come across to the Communist Chinese government. I think maybe the only others who do this are the jews who give information to Israel. The Chinese are much more active in this endeavor. It is an accpeted fact that they are doing the most spying in the U. S. They seem to be builders, not innovators or inventors. Same with the Japanese.

comment 11
expresso date : 26/07/2009 time : 23.10
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

Hermano, I think Piset might have meant that because of the caste system in India, it may prevent India from running it efficiently even if it gets refitted.

comment 10
Hermano_Lobo date : 26/07/2009 time : 22.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

UPDATE: Chinese Aircraft Carrier
---------------------------------------

"China's carrier has gone to sea" was the headline of one Asian newspaper. The event -- the story implied -- marked the long-awaited operational debut of the former Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag. In reality, the ship got underway with harbor tugs providing the power, moving the ship from a pier in the port of Dalian to a nearby dry dock, a "voyage" of about two miles.

As of this writing, no major work on the ship has been observed since she arrived at Dalian in northeastern China on 3 March 2002. The ship was painted a few years ago, but little other effort has gone into the unfinished giant despite periodic press claims that the carrier was being "clandestinely" completed.

While the ship was being towed to the dry dock on 27 April the Varyag was extensively photographed. Those photos reveal much about the ship: She rode high in the water and, with the lack of "patches" on her flight deck, it is obvious that engines had not been installed in the ship. Her flight deck lacks arresting cables and operational markings, and her island structure is void of the aerials, electronic domes, and radar antennas that inundate aircraft carriers.

The question is: Why has the Varyag moved into a dry dock. A number of reasons are possible for her brief voyage and dry docking. These include:

(1) Completing the carrier -- which was laid down at the Nikolayev South shipyard as the Soviet Riga in the Ukraine in 1985. This would involve the complex task of installing engines and other machinery (assuming that they are now available), auxiliary equipment, messing and berthing facilities, radars and other electronic equipment, etc.

(2) Carrying out general maintenance on the hulk, including cleaning her underwater hull, and taking other measures to simply preserve the Varyag until a definite decision is made concerning her eventual fate.

(3) Permitting naval architects and others to examine the ship's underwater hull, possibly to assist in efforts to design and construct an indigenous Chinese aircraft carrier.

There can be no question but the Chinese Navy's leadership wants to acquire aircraft carriers, primarily to provide air cover for naval operations in the South China Sea, an area of great interest to China because of offshore oil activities. In long-range planning, the Chinese may also be considering their increasing political and economic interests in Africa and South America. However, despite periodic press reports -- some saying that the first Chinese carrier will be completed this year -- there is still no publicly available evidence that construction of such ships has begun in China. Indeed, even commercial satellites would have detected such efforts.

Chinese shipyards, which are producing advanced missile destroyers and nuclear-propelled submarines as well as large merchant ships, can certainly build a large aircraft carrier. Completion of the ship -- which would take probably four years or more from the start of construction -- would have to be followed by a lengthy working up period, with extensive ship and then aircraft trials and qualifications. Thus, with at least a year from the decision to build such a ship until actual construction would start because of the need to order components and materials, if that decision were made today the first Chinese carrier could be ready in about six or seven years.

comment 9
Hermano_Lobo date : 26/07/2009 time : 21.51
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

The picture above is the ex-Soviet/Ukrainian aircraft carrier Varyag. After much persuasion from the Chinese it was allowed to be towed through the Bosphorus.

Once in China, the Chinese set about refurbishing it.
It will be quite a job to get it into active service as the Chinese have not operated an aircraft carrier of this size before.
I don't doubt that they will achieve it.

comment 8
Hermano_Lobo date : 26/07/2009 time : 21.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Piset,

I cannot follow your point.

India has had an indigenous aircraft industry for many years.
It has also operated aircraft carriers for a number of years.

China has yet to do so. Most of its aircraft are licenced built Soviet types.

It might be a challenge to put the USS Kitty Hawk back in service, but India is not exactly short of man-power or technical expertise.
In fact I would put it ahead of China in quite a few areas.

comment 7
Piset date : 26/07/2009 time : 19.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

Yuri:

For what I know, Thailand and Pakistan had been jointly ranked by Chinese government as its best allies. Thailand lost that status when it sent in airplanes to evacuate Thais following Tian An Men incidents. To this date, Pakistan is still ranked as the No. 1 friend of China. That could be the reason for the frequent strenous efforts on the part of the US to pull India to its side. India, however, I heard, has been trying to build up its fleet of perhaps 2-4 medium size aircraft carrier during the past few years since the news that China was starting the construction of its aircraft carriers.

I am not sure whether the class distinctions among Indian people might affect its operation of the aircraft carrier. Evidences were found that, in industries, despite the much cheaper labor, comparing to China, India did not have much cost advantages in industries due to the clearly divided roles of people of different classes. Thus a job that is done by one chinese may required 3-5 Indians to do. I am not sure how this might work on that aircraft carrier.

Building or buying an aircraft carrier is one thing, maintaining it allong with maintaining those aircraft onboard and the weapons on board are quite another stories. The years of shut in and imaginative wars against US and Soviet had pushed China into a country with complete upstream and downstream industries in military hardwares. The recent opening up and industrialization has certainly helped them a lot there. China, today, relies mostly on weapons and aircrafts that it produces by itself while India is still rely on imports mostly for its militaly hardwares. This will make it quite convenient for china to maintain its fleet while India will have to rely quite a lot on US and Russia.

In any case, with 700,000 Indians travelling to China for business opportunities in 2008, I don't think thee is any possibilities of any serious military confrontations between these two giants in the forseeable future.

Thus, if the US is selling USS Kitty Hawk to India, it would be more in the sense of scraventuring than militaly power balance.

comment 6
wch date : 26/07/2009 time : 18.20

India having the fleet of oceanic expeditionary naval forces, it is also good to PRC. PRC is now trying in full speed, to build up this fleet and Japan and Korean (south) are not later than PRC is. 555

comment 5
Hermano_Lobo date : 26/07/2009 time : 17.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Considering India's massive human resources and technical skills. I doubt whether putting the USS Kitty Hawk would be too much trouble for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kitty_Hawk_(CV-63)

comment 4
Hermano_Lobo date : 26/07/2009 time : 17.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Besides the Viraat(ex HMS Hermes)

Indai has ....

The Russian carrier, to be renamed Vikramaaditya, was planned to be the core of India's new three-carrier naval oceangoing force. The 273 meter long Kiev Class ship was built at the Nikolaeve shipyard in the Ukraine between 1978 and 1987 as a V-STOL carrier designed to operate Yak-38 aircraft. Although the ship was commissioned by the Navy of the Soviet Union in 1991 it was never completed and, therefore, required extensive completion work, in addition to the repair required due to aging, corrosion and preparations to meet customer requirements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Admiral_Gorshkov

comment 3
Hermano_Lobo date : 26/07/2009 time : 17.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Piset, you have little knowledge of India or Naval equipment.

They already operate the ex-HMS Hermes.

See photo above

comment 2
wch date : 26/07/2009 time : 16.42

Small nuclear steam generator can replace old diesel engine or gas turbine engine and India is believed capable of this. Also India has technological ability to reproduce similar product here, the vessel.

Allying India is ever-lasting US military strategy.
More deepening in this, more closely Russia and PRC are allied as seen recently both are in joint military exercise.

People must be anatomical why such big alliances are pursued.
It is because of the unchanging military stretegy of both Russia and PRC's, that is,
'If we are attacked, we will use nuclear arsenal instantly'. This is the policy having established since Stalin and Mao.
US and western sides need 4-5 steps until the supreme commander can order the military to use the weapon but Russian and Chinese system is, supreme commander 'must order' instantly to shoot nuke warhead according to the central party's military strategy.

Recently S.T.A.R.T between Russia and US was renewed in fast amicable mood. This is to encourage PRC, India to join in.
START must be the standard of using the weapon to every countries of the possession including NK.

Unless locking world' nuclear arsenal permanently, the competition will continue.

comment 1
BangkokRay date : 26/07/2009 time : 15.38

Piset,
The USS Kittyhawk was decomissioned last year and replaced with the USS George Washington. In it's later years of operation, it spent a lot of down time for maintenance. It is a big and beautiful ship, but it's not practical for use by the Indian navy.

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