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Grassroots Philosophy in East and West
Walk the bridge between East and West (you see more when walking) and reopen the gate between inner and outer Man
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
Saturday , April 12 , 2008
If you are a Physicist like Ian and Felix
Posted by talkfact , Reader : 878 , 18:54:11  
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You decide to study Nature seen as a laboratory, only looking at the very basis of matter. You come up with something we can call “The laws of the lab”.

Now, you feel the world should be filled with articles made of plastic. You construct a factory complete with lab and machines for producing the goods.

Now you use your “laws of the lab” and without too much problems you produce plastic.

So far you have accomplished two achievements, both fantastic and brilliant.

You have seen through the religious superstition of your time (at a timre when the idea to look at Nature as a lab was entirely alien) so, in one way you help people get rid of some of their ignorance about Nature.

Secondly, you have come up with plastic – something that hadn’t existed in this world prior to that event.

So far, so good.

However, now you bring your plastic out of the lab and into the outside natural world. But it doesn’t fit in. It doesn’t have the characteristics of things you find in the natural world. Why? Because everything in the natural world was produced during a time-span while your plastic in a way actually copies Big Bang and is produced immediately like in an explosion. This because when creating the plastic in your lab you primarily used your knowledge of the four forces and the building blocks (atoms, molecules) created by Big Bang. (Although, secretly, you have to use some other knowledge of qualitative nature to add colour, shape and consistence to your plastic – if you didn’t do that you wouldn’t produce anything else than a useless gel in your lab).

However, you stand strong. What doesn’t fit into the picture will have to be censured from now on, this is your new motto, or in fact an old motto, as exactly the same motto were used by the priests. The two assistants, Ian and Felix, in this way face danger; they are threatened with inquisition and forced to lie about the truth.

But the truth cannot be hidden for long. Ian and Felix are released from jail and now they rise quickly in fame and reputation. In fact they become like kings. As the laws of the lab work – no one can deny that -  other scientists, like the Biologists are degraded and censured even.

Ian and Felix now declare Physics, the science which rely on the laws of the lab, as the Science in order to make Physics, Big Bang physics, the measure of all things.

Other Scientist grumble, especially the Biologists. Among those Scientist who grumble, there is Prirogine. His ideas are very different from those of Ian and Felix. Prirogine says that this universe of Ian and Felix – a universe of timeless idealization made up entirely of matter and forces which act on the matter but do not change is a static concept that simply cannot be true. It’s a mechanical model but we live in a world which is not mechanical.

Prirogine’s solution is irreversibility. Time is fundamental part of Nature and that’s why we see what we call Evolution – matter organises itself into higher and more complex systems. And there is history.

Strolling around in their palace, a lab in this case, Ian and Felix are like kings now. The atmosphere from the time of the priest’s inquisition has changed, yet it similar. Now, they can run the inquisitions themselves, censure books by other scientists and share the wealth of the all rich sponsors in the world.

Here, let’s stop this tale for a minute and ask ourselves this: What has happened here really? To begin with, where did this sudden cleverness – to see through and discover the physical mechanism in matter – come from?

The answer is logic. By using logic Ian and Felix were able to accomplish all that what this tale told you.

From another source, Biology, we can learn there are two modes of “thought”, two modes living creatures use for acting in this world.

One is called Selectionism. This is what Evolution uses and what all living creatures use. (We too). You will live a perfectly biological and ecological life by using it. And thus you exist in perfect harmony with the ecological system

However, two groups of living creatures use another mode of thought as well: logic.

Insects, like ants, termites and beetle use logic. They have had farming, agriculture, for 50 million years (and thus were far ahead of us). Ants and termites live in sophisticated buildings they constructed themselves complete with air condition and all.

Beehives, spider’s webs, what do they remind us of? Mathematics. Again: logic.

Yet again, nowhere can you find those insects mentioned interfere with Nature. They live in perfect harmony with the rest of the natural world.

Humans have logic too, and in our case it’s a sort o free-will-concept, a more advanced concept.

And in the beginning there was nothing remarkable with us either. We lived in harmony with Nature  relying heavily on Selectionism, until we got Science. The main problem today with the short-cut logic of Physics  is that the mechanical world it has built for us, interferes with the natural world in a way giving us a scenario where science must spend more and more of its time to solve the problems it itself has created.

Desperately struggling inside this rat-race, this labyrinth, the Physicists, Ian and Felix, are going for a brand-new concept: Let’s make the whole earth artificial, into a Robot world – then all the problems we now encounter will cease to exist (as what we today call Ecology will cease to exist). If we make humans into robots, with chips in their heads, artificial limbs etc, they will escape sickness, diseases, depressions (happiness will cease to exist too though).

This Robot man does not have to be emotionally upset when the last tree on earth is gone and the last shrimp from the sea is dead. This Robot man is in fact the perfect candidate for an emigration from a dying planet, which was finally collapsed under a most simple idea: the laws of the lab, erroneously put into overuse in a world ruled by laws of Nature which had to be constantly neglected.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Read comment

comment 116
Lalida date : 25/04/2008 time : 14.17
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Krap Pom
comment 115
wch date : 25/04/2008 time : 09.22

Lalida,
You are right. Let me close this dialog.
comment 114
Lalida date : 24/04/2008 time : 13.56
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

WCH,

I disagree with your explanation from what I know and the info I've got.

車 is pronounce as "Che" or in Cantonese "Chia" as you mentioned, it still means "vehicle" of anykind without a engine.

Wheel is pronounce as "Lun", cantonese pronounce the same. The chinese character writing you have to do it cos I don't know how but base of the dictionary that I have, you miss one part on the right hand side of the word "車".

If "Khia" it means automobile, bicycle, cart or even elevator and escalator.

Can you put "Khia" in chinese character for me? It's easier for me to find out and I doubt it means elevator or escalator as well.

Thanks for the explanation of "Huang di" but I think the meaning are much superior than the Emperor.

"Phoenix" is the symbol of the Queen. "Dragon" symbols the "King". You will never find any cloths or belongings of the King with a "Phoenix" on.

Sorry, I wasn't asking anything in relation to "Hakka". I ask what's tribe of people are call other than "Han" after the fall of "Han dynasty". The people that invade the "Han dynasty", what do "Han" people call them?
comment 113
Ian date : 24/04/2008 time : 09.58
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Sunlight = visible light
Sun heat = Infra-red
Both are part of a continuous spectrum
comment 112
wch date : 24/04/2008 time : 09.40

Lalida,
If you pronounce the han script "Chia", it means, wheel such as auto steering wheel, tire, or machine's toothed wheels that rotates in their teeth.
If "Khia" it means automobile, bicycle, cart or even elevator and escalator.

Huang Ti can be directly translated like "Phoenix feather decorated, Higher Flag pole", means King or the highest King (of many kings), so equivalent to an English, Emperor.

For Han and Hakka peoples, refer to,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka_people
comment 111
wch date : 24/04/2008 time : 08.48

"wavicles",
I don't know when they started using the words, in Han civilization, but they separately used two different word to express SUN LIGHT.
Two words are Sun Light (Nit Kuan) and Sun Warmth (Nit On). Apparently people had different feelings in the radiations.

The people could not difine them until they found the prism and it was the Europeans who did it.
This is the difference.

In Han language poem, both sun ray and sun warmth are often used such as,

" The pouring of sun ray "grains" awakened me from long winter sleep,----"
(Sun ray grains penetrates the thin oak paper window pane and warm the cold room).
comment 110
Lalida date : 23/04/2008 time : 21.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

In that case, have to get one then......
comment 109
Ian date : 23/04/2008 time : 21.27
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Laslida, yes it is, that is why he stopped blogging, too busy writing:-)
comment 108
Lalida date : 23/04/2008 time : 21.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Seems interesting TF,

Will probably go get one, I wonder if it's the same
" Trirat" in this web blog before!
comment 107
talkfact date : 23/04/2008 time : 20.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 


An extremely evocative collection of stories set in contemporary Thailand by an award-winning author. Trirat Petchsingh’s masterfully-crafted stories are quirky, interesting, and always fun to read.

His language is often beautiful and powerful. He has a first-rate ability to keep his readers in suspense and then surprise them with unexpected endings.

There are intriguing stories about family relationships, lovers and cads, and other ordinary mortals. They deal with rites of passage, life’s mysteries and epiphanies, and sometimes just ordinary experiences, but always with an intriguing twist. His heroes, while not all entirely loveable, are all believable and worthy of our sympathy. For example, there is a miner who seeks his fortune in the hills of the north, a news reporter who mixes a little romance with his work, and an army conscript who becomes involved in momentous events. In this collection of nineteen stories, Trirat Petchsingh has revealed an insight into the Thai milieu that no other author has attempted.
Details
comment 106
Ian date : 23/04/2008 time : 16.55
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

TF, lulumely is a gamester he will get kicked of when admin notices him, and the sooner the better!
comment 105
Ian date : 23/04/2008 time : 16.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

TF, you are right in one thing, Felix is a specialist, I am a generalist. You and Felix actually have much in common, you both hold strong opinions on the subject of science and philosophy, and even when these opinions agree, you disagree:-)
I have argued with Felix on many topics, particularly religion and the paranormal, but I also agree with him on many topics.
You started off attacking me over my, to you, unfair attacks on Thais. You then allowed this to influence your attitude towards me from then on.
This is not my style, I had had numerous fights with Lalida, yet if she makes a point I agree with I will support her.
I prefer facts, you and her prefer emotions, there is a place for both.
This latest battle between you and Felix is wrong, Felix is portrayed as the defender of western GraecoRoman science and Philosophy, you are the defender of Asian science and philosophy.
In fact civilisation arose in the fertile crescent, Mesopotamia, with parallel cultures in the Nile valley and Harrapan region. From these centres it spread both eastwards and westward.
comment 104
Lalida date : 23/04/2008 time : 16.49
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

TF,

Trirat write books? Which one?
comment 103
talkfact date : 23/04/2008 time : 16.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Ian; your next mission should be "lulumely12",
a new blogger. Good luck.
comment 102
talkfact date : 23/04/2008 time : 16.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Ian; It’s a good thing that you exist on this weblog; you have a great mission to fulfil here.
The latest subject I studied at a university was a course in “The development of scientific thinking in the Western world.” Not one word on this course was said about the development in East Asia. And when I looked for literature which covered the East I found only books written by Westerners and taking everything what happened in the East under the measure from a Western world point of view.
The blogs of mine have been a try to see things from an Eastern point of view. But in Felix’s way of arguing I recognize again the school book concept from that course mentioned. And to follow Felix and make it into an academic blog – how many wants to read that? The trick on this blog is to write so that a fair share of number of people can follow what you say. You can do that, and you do it well (except when you fall in the same trap as Felix) but for Felix my first impression remains;
Felix is a highly specialized Western Mind, and thus automatically a highly ignorant Western Mind as well. As I see it he is swinging between a school book world and that perfectly ordered school book world disintegrating in chaos. Does he ever have any time left to visit the real world?
He makes nice reading from time to time, but not always, not when his Mind is touching that chaotic side of his. (I see perfect order as a form of chaos).

I have studied Philosophy, not for three years though, and I’m going to do it again. At the end of this year in fact – at a British university in fact – mainly distance courses based on essays, and doing the exams at the British Council in Bangkok.

But right now I’m going to look for Trirat’s book from the book shop.
comment 101
Lalida date : 23/04/2008 time : 14.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

WCH,

You still have not answer my request on C92 and C93 which I'm eager to learn.
comment 100
Lalida date : 23/04/2008 time : 14.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Wch,

"'Animal pulling two wheels' chariot'. As you've written "Chariot" or in today world "A vehicle" of somekind, right? So, to take the word "車" meaning Wheel is wrong, correct?

"Han", you have mentioned in various comments of this tribe of people,so, can you tell me as well which dynasty in China starts calling themselve "Han" and when did it end. The majority of chinese in todays world, how many are hans and what are the others consider as ?
comment 99
Ian date : 23/04/2008 time : 11.36
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I am starting to feel that both TF and Felix have "painted themselves into a corner".
At the subatomic level we have "wavicles", particles which also possess wave functions. In some situations it is convenient to treat them as discrete particles, in other situation they are described best as a waveform. Physicists have no problem with this duality and even exploit it.
This dual nature has been known since the 17th century and was initiated by the debate between Newton and Huygens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality

So if Asia sees wave theory as the new science they are 400 years too late:-)

Turning now to genes, a gene is a series of codons, data bits. Each codon is a triplet of three nucleotides. Some genes can be expressed in isolation, others work in groups. So exercising poetic licence some genes are stand alone particles and some are more like waves, in the sense that a wave consists of particles moving in unison.

To be perfectly honest this debate has reached a point where I am no longer clear what the debate is about:-)

Perhaps TF and Felix would be so kind as to restate, simply, their opposing views.
comment 98
wch date : 23/04/2008 time : 10.14

Felix and Tf,
the intuition or inspiration, perception and so on, the critical meditation is, I believe the modern catapult to strike the empasse of technology.

Seemingly all of earth energy are harnessed well but still scientist thinks of " outer space hellium gas" as a new energy source.

He is a Japanese.
comment 97
wch date : 23/04/2008 time : 08.52


According to Han people's history book, the first primitive Han scripts were appeared in turtle shell during Shang period BC 3000 - BC 1028.
During Chou era BC 1027 - BC 220, the stronger Han ethnity among hundred, using 'Animal pulling two wheels' chariot', started out to subdue contending ethnities.
This specific character is believed, coined to name the tool. The center hub (holding shaft) was made of hard wood and lubricated by cattle fat. Outer wheel was fastened with iron ring (tire).

In this mechanical construction, one may imagine how many of new words were added, from iron smith, shaft, hub, lubrication, spoke, wood wheel, iron rim as well as more importantly, the speed and weight, dynamism of cart, and the new war tactics......
comment 96
talkfact date : 22/04/2008 time : 21.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Felix, faithful to your own manners you shut up when you should talk and talk when you should shut up. Talking to you is indeed like talking to a wall.
But a wall that talks and walks (and talks a lot) I call a Robot.
comment 95
FelixQui date : 22/04/2008 time : 21.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/FelixQui

TF wrote: "From this point of view, I shall argue that East Asian people, relying much more on intuition than Westerners with their intellectual minds, will come up with a Science more advanced, and also easier understood by ordinary people, that the intellectual Science of the West of today."
Would you care to specify a before by date so we can test your theory about the imminent superiority of a radically new paradigm form teh East? Next year? July 27 this year? Or a more conveniently untestable and meaningless 1732 years down teh line?

Are you aware that all Asian countries are doing their utmost to follow and develop Western science? DO you think that sort of contradicts the above theory?

Do you have a single example or a single piece of supporting evidence of the radical new Eastern form of science that is about to take over?

I think the ordinary view of most ordinary people is that the world is full of fairly solid matter, and if not full that at least it is made of solid particles rather than waves. Why would you think that a wave theory of fundamental reality is more intuitive? And on what evidence are you basing your claim that that is what most people do intuitively think?

TF wrote: "genes are part of a field of information, they are not particles. They must be seen as an interacting whole," and presente this as evidence of a new way of thinking in science. It isn't. It is, like the normal disagreement and argument that is so important to the enterprise, a perfectly ordinary and common way of thinking about things like genes - how did you get the idea that there was something unusual about it? Even weirder, where did you get the idea that disagreement and debate amongst scientists was unusual? It's part of the basic framework. Where did you learn your philosophy of science?

TF wrote: "I shall further argue that Chinese language, also used by all their neighbours from early on (like Latin in Europe), is not defective in this sense, rather it is superior in viewing matter as waves instead of particles and this it has proved already by the Philosophy of Confucianism and Taoism. " What does this mean? Why is Chinese better suited than an a variable inflected language where the words change form to indicate different meanings? If anything, I would think the inflected languages like Latin and Greek are more wavelike than the absolutely static, unchanging, Chinese characters of a totally uninflected language. You are, as usual, exactly wrong to teh extent that your idea has any sensible meaning.

TF wrote: "And, further, pictorial language has the advantage also of seeing the world as phenomena in space (as pictures are space in themselves)." Unfortuantely, there are no (I mean NO) pictorial languages in use today. Written Chinese is not pictorial. Where did you learn your linguistics? The same place as you learnt philosophy? And science?

Why don't you give up or ask someone else to write your posts for you? Anyone would be hard pressed to find anything in your comments that is not either false, or drivel, or both. At least do some serious study before continuing to spout your pop-neo-weirdiness ideas. It would be a good idea to read at least the basic works of the major philosophers, and it might not hurt to study a bit of modern science, and philosophy of science, and a bit of history, say of China, wouldn't go astray since you have such wonderfully unreal ideas about that country and its past.
comment 94
talkfact date : 22/04/2008 time : 20.10
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Felix; I have been looking behind the”Chinese wall” of Physics. I see dispute and disagreements; I see journals of Science refusing to accept articles which disagree with the ruling paradigm (the ruling view of how things are).
I see the ruling paradigm, may I call it “The Science of seeing matter as particles”, as the old Science. You can trace it back to ancient Greek. It’s an intellectual concept, hence a typical Western world concept, resting on Mathematics only.
However, there are two types of Mathematics.
The first comes up with mathematical truths only.
The second comes up with mathematical truths which correspond to physical reality.

The “particle-view” is being used in Gene technology, viewing the gene as a particle. This is a false concept. The very discoverer of the gene, he was Danish, gave a word of warning about seeing the gene as a particle. Nobody listened to that. But the fact is the way as another Danish scientist puts it: genes are part of a field of information, they are not particles. They must be seen as an interacting whole.
Now, there is what I would like to call a “new” Science. May I call it “The Science of seeing matter as waves”. It views matter as a “whole”, as waves interacting in space. Already Einstein put it this way: “Physical objects are not space, but these objects are spatially extended. In this concept empty space loses its meaning.”
Hence: the ancient Greek notion of a point particle, still in use today, is replaced with a spherical wave structure.
Amazingly, this view coincides with the view of ordinary people, when using intuition this is what you would come up with.
From this point of view, I shall argue that East Asian people, relying much more on intuition than Westerners with their intellectual minds, will come up with a Science more advanced, and also easier understood by ordinary people, that the intellectual Science of the West of today.
I shall further argue that Chinese language, also used by all their neighbours from early on (like Latin in Europe), is not defective in this sense, rather it is superior in viewing matter as waves instead of particles and this it has proved already by the Philosophy of Confucianism and Taoism. And, further, pictorial language has the advantage also of seeing the world as phenomena in space (as pictures are space in themselves).
In the West, the books, the intellectual way, always had had the final say (here I take India to be part of the West).
In the East, intuition has the final say. This makes a world of difference.
comment 93
Lalida date : 22/04/2008 time : 15.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

One more thing, can you kindly explain the meaning of "Huang Ti" in details? I love to know...
comment 92
Lalida date : 22/04/2008 time : 15.29
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

BTW WCH,

Since you know so much about everything, can you tell me which one comes first and which one is more widely used? The traditional chinese or the simplfied chinese writiing and how it relates to each other and who modified the format of one another?
comment 91
Lalida date : 22/04/2008 time : 15.24
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

WCH,

C87 Amazing theory......BTW C89 which part of "車" this word means wheel ? I think you missed out the other side.
comment 90
Ian date : 22/04/2008 time : 12.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Hm, let me see, the Han dynasty began in 206 BC.
There is a spoked wheel on display at The National Museum of Iran, in Tehran. The wheel is dated to the late 2nd millennium BC and was excavated at Choqa Zanbil.
Persians 1: Chinese nill
Next?
comment 89
wch date : 22/04/2008 time : 09.57


This Han script means 'Wheel" as well as "Vehicle".
The center square is the 'spokes' of wheel.
Spoke was invented first by Han people.

Which one is more simpler in strokes and graphic impression ?
comment 88
Ian date : 22/04/2008 time : 09.26
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

King from Germanic "Konig", Emperor from Latin "Imperator", Czar from Roman "Caesar".
All essentially mean the same thing, namely supreme ruler.
comment 87
wch date : 22/04/2008 time : 08.59

TF,
Real Han race of today is merely about 180million and they are one of proto-Tungusic tribe (Genome map was completed but they carefully reveal today.
Apparently modern Japanese and Korean started from same ancestor. Japanese Denno is the descendant of ancient Korean royal family as Denno himself confirmed this recently).

The bottom language of Han's is similar to other tungusic languages but it was deeply corrupted by using ideographic Han script.
For instance, the meaning of 'SLOW' is similar sound of Xusue, shasha, soso, siasia in n.e. asian languages. Lao is shasha, here in Thailand undoubtedly, "chacha !."
(Lao and Thai exchange the sound from S and CH like beer Chang to beer Shang).

The obligatory learning of Han script of PRC, Korea, Japan and Taiwan is 1950 scripts equally in high school level, 3000 in college level and 4500 of mastery who can easily read the BC century Confusious (Non Ou)

Han people precisely designed the water wheel and its power dynamism in AD first century by using Han's scientific language, mathmatics and engineering terminology.

Many of English can not translate the ancient philosophical words of Han's.
For example, Denno is Japanese Han script meaning the king of Japan. Western people translates it as Emperor. Japan is not the empire.
Denno has one meaning, the heavenly phoenix if hard to translate it. Huang Ti is translated too as emperor in English speaking people but it does not mean exactly it. Moreover, never be the divine power. Originally Denno or Huang Ti started as a symbol of decoration like Indian chief's but later people corrupted it into a devinity.

Most of Chinese Huang Ti came out from peasantry !.
comment 86
narcisuss date : 21/04/2008 time : 22.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/narcisuss
I  come in peace :)

I'm sorry if my comment is not very serious.

"(There are theologians who has pointed out that the Christian bible is in a way perfectly logical and consistent – saying this must sound like saying rude words in a church as the bible cannot have something to do with logic – according to Analytic philosophy the bible is just a book where you can find, page after page, ignorant and stupid passages of meaningless words and phrases). "

There are communists that have pointed out that Mao's policies were actually quite beneficial and smart.

I'm reading a book called the black swan.. The author mentions that there seems to be a positive correlation between dopamine levels and a person's propensity to think that he recognizes a pattern.
Lets see what else dopamine might cause on (wikipedia):
* Visual and possibly auditory hallucinations

* Extreme emotional states

* Effects on learning; there is some evidence that it improves working memory

Now; who is it that sees consistancy in a text full of contradictions (but not a consistancy of contradiction), claims to have witnessed miracles, is prone to utter an emotional halleluja, and remember onerous amounts of quotes and paragraphs?

Maybe we should try injecting the faithful with dopamine inhibitors and see what happens.
comment 85
talkfact date : 21/04/2008 time : 22.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

I said parted but I meant joined - but this blog doesn't seem to want to accept that...
(George Henrik von Wright left analytic logic and joined the Frankfurt school).
comment 84
talkfact date : 21/04/2008 time : 22.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Felix; I didn’t say Chinese language is defective. I only said it’s a specialized language due to its pictorial construction.
Analytic logic is a specialized language too, and it’s not defective either. I just said it looks far-fetched that the Chinese in their isolation around 1200-1300 should have come up with something like analytic logic. When pointed at, from external source, of course they can do analytic logic as well as any other people, but that was not my issue.
Actually, Felix, in your comment you use the word “logic” as if it was synonymous with all logic of today. That fellow mentioned, Georg Henrik von Wright, he left Analytic logic after three years and parted with the Frankfurt school. This is part of is a school of philosophical thought, the so called “continental school of thought” which differs in many ways from the analytic school. From their (Continental school of thought) point of view everything at a British university is measured from the analytic school and yes, they run courses at British universities about all kinds of Philosophy, but I gather they are just viewed from a historical point of view. You don’t need history to do analytic logic, it’s a new concept, it didn’t exist before Frege, it’s like doing mathematics. What you come up with is true but it doesn’t say much about the world. It’s an overrated concept when being used to establish true facts about the world when in fact is has abandoned the world and is content with studying language in its own right. Yes, there is logic in language, Frege discovered that (and took logic a giant step forward compared to Aristotle) and this logic (Analytic logic) now rests on common sense.
As common sense didn’t give us religion, didn’t give us the soul, etc, by using Analytic logic you can declare those things as meaningless. (There are theologians who has pointed out that the Christian bible is in a way perfectly logical and consistent – saying this must sound like saying rude words in a church as the bible cannot have something to do with logic – according to Analytic philosophy the bible is just a book where you can find, page after page, ignorant and stupid passages of meaningless words and phrases). (Hinduism, the Veda scriptures, Upanishads, etc, are in no way better according to this). Then the issue boils down to this: is common sense all there is? Is common sense synonymous with the human mind, or do the human mind consists of something more – other means of finding knowledge, such as intuition?


What I said in connection to China as the “workshop” and India as the “office” were just spontaneous reflections – call them hypotheses if you want. You have to use a hypothesis to come forward in your thoughts – but I admit those hypotheses of mine would explain so many things in one single draw, I admit it would be fantastic if they were true. To prove them today, in this global world of ours, cannot be done.
About Thai language I just said Thai language imported, borrowed, its present language characters from India. And I you go to India you might find they imported them too, etc.
That’s a story of its own.

Felix, you are like a Chinese wall yourself. If you are, I’m exactly the opposite. I prefer open landscape. When I see a Chinese wall, blocking the horizon, something starts itching in my back and I want to move forward and crash that wall….it’s a primitive concept, I admit that, and from time to time I have used it in this blog. Then again, is a Chinese wall the final concept and does is tells the truth only by the fact of its existence?
comment 83
Ian date : 21/04/2008 time : 21.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Narc, my comment was long enough as it is without getting involved in that debate. Basically if not him, someone did
comment 82
narcisuss date : 21/04/2008 time : 21.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/narcisuss
I  come in peace :)

"The written language of Thailand was a royal creation based on Brahmi and Khmer (King Rankhamhaeng (1275-1317) ). "

I think Trirat and some historians might disagree with you there

But your point is still valid of course.
comment 81
Ian date : 21/04/2008 time : 21.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I will leave Felix to argue the philosophy, but will make some observations on language. Firstly there seems to be some confusion between language and writing. Language followed an evolutionary path which can be traced back to PIE, ProtoIndoEuropean, and possibly further.
Sanskrit is the "living fossil" link between several spoken Indian and European languages.
Writing followed a different path. For many languages there is no direct relationship between the language and the script used. For example Croatian and Serbian languages are so close as to be mutually understandable, but the former uses the Roman alphabet and the other the Cyrillic alphabet. Simply the result of historical, political decisions.

The oldest forms of writing used pictures or symbols for whole words. These are called Logograms. Early examples of logograms are Hieroglyphs (picture writing used by Ancient Egyptian), Mayan Glyphs (drawings representing words) and Cuniform (wedge shaped characters used by Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Hittite and Persian). The modern languages of China (for example, Mandarin, Cantonese) and Japanese are still written using logograms called Chinese Characters (or Kanji in Japanese).

By far the most common writing systems in the world are based on symbols determined by sounds rather than words. If single sounds it is called an "alphabet", if Combinations of sounds a "syllabary".
The first known alphabet was invented in Ugarit (in the modern country of Syria) during the 2nd Millennium BC. This Ugarit Alphabet was derived from a previous Cuniform writing system.
The Ugarit Alphabet slowly evolved into the Phoenician, alphabet of the eastern Mediterranean region. The Phoenicians were great traders across the sea and their alphabet spread far and wide. With minor variations this alphabet has evolved to all the modern scripts in the world, even down to the sequence of the letters. Phoenician is thus considered to be the ancestor of all modern alphabets and syllabaries.
Phoenician slowly evolved into Hebrew (via Aramaic) and Arabic (via Nabatean), both within the area of its invention.

The Arabic script spread with Islam and was adapted for use by other languages. The Nastaliq form of Arabic is used by Urdu and Farsi in Pakistan, North India, Iran, and Afghanistan.

The alphabet also moved East when Aramaic moved to Central Asia to give the Mongolian script and arrived in North India as Brahmi. This become the syllabaries of North Indian languages like Hindi, Bengali, Punjabi and Gujarati. Tibetan script derives from the North Indian systems.

In Southern India, the North Indian syllabaries evolved into the curved syllabaries of languages like Pali, Tamil, and Singhalese (in Sri Lanka). The spread of Buddhism to South East Asia took these curved scripts further east (Burmese, Thai, Khmer, and Javanese). These scripts were originally written on palm leaves which split if a straight line is drawn on them; hence their curved appearance.
The written language of Thailand was a royal creation based on Brahmi and Khmer (King Rankhamhaeng (1275-1317) ).

So when TF wrote: "You can track Thai language characters all the way back to the Phoenician language and then further back to the hieroglyphs of Egypt." He is half correct, he should have stopped with Phoenician