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Grassroots Philosophy in East and West
Walk the bridge between East and West (you see more when walking) and reopen the gate between inner and outer Man
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
Thursday , April 10 , 2008
Unfair attacks on Thai on this weblog
Posted by talkfact , Reader : 564 , 22:34:06  
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Sometimes when I read Ian’s blogs I found expressions like “Thai people don’t know how to plan”. This is certainly not true of Thai middle class but it might have a bearing of truth on very poor people. However this would be similar anywhere, in any country.

The 45 million Americans who do no have a health insurance can be accused of the same thing. They cannot afford a proper medical coverage. And they don’t know how to plan because you have to pass a certain level of affluence before you start to plan. This is human.

In both cases mentioned it’s the failure of the State, not ordinary people. (Thai state in fact pays each one 1200 Baht a year – or that might be only for the old age group – anyway it doesn’t cover a serious accident or disease). A Thai who brakes his leg in a motor bike accident and has to stay in hospital for three weeks will be asked to pay ten thousand Baht.

Now, Ian belongs to an age group that were taught in school that this world is totally deterministic. That he is a child of his time he proves again and again in his arguments. The world according to this view is divided into watertight compartments and nothing really changes, things just go on and on untouched by any circumstances. That is the Science of 1950.

This is the way Ian uses his knowledge also; as it cannot be changed, as it is all deterministic and therefore eternally true, all he can do is to run it like a game, a display, a show.

As I have a number of relatives of the same age group as Ian, I know already that you can only have a discussion with them up to a certain point. They will never leave their deterministic universe no matter how hard you try. And we are all children of our times so I don’t blame him for that.

So why does Ian, and for example Seven, attack Thai people in an unfair mode? Basically, it’s a inferiority complex. You come to foreign country and settle there; by the time you get irritated on some of the customs in your new country and start blaming it. Every immigrant does that, it’s a way to defend yourself – after all you have settled in another country because you like the place but still it will never be your own country so you defend yourself by blaming it. This takes place daily all over the world but normally mouth-to-mouth. To use a weblog for doing it – I feel is a bit out of place.

For Seven, I don’t see the point in using this blog for descriptions of strange behaviour of the Eesan (Isan) people. (His blog about the way they walk).

I have worked three years in Thailand and I have met many people from Isan (ordinary people, not bar workers) and I haven’t noticed something peculiar with them. And if someone has, I cannot see it as something else than another kind of inferiority complex from the observer. (The very opposite, then, to what it pretends to be).

I gather it must feel strange for an individual from Isan who come to Bangkok and read in a paper about the peculiarities of  his own people.

I have worked in UK too. And by the way, I have some friends who own sailing-boats and have been around the world with them. One amazing fact was told to me by one of these families – at that time they had lived, on the boat, in the harbour of Torrevieja in Spain for six years. And the women of this family was the chairman of the club of those settlers so she knew what she talked about.

 

She told me this: British people were the worst of all groups, arrogant, no control in their drinking and British women were the easiest catch of all nationalities. That’s Europe!

One more thing, very recently a story appeared in the paper about a HIV-infected man who succeeded to seduce 200 young Swedish girls. No Swede would find it interesting to blog about that. And is happens all the time in many countries. Some people infected by HIV are known for taking up a last mission in life: to infect as many as possible. And as the same person doesn’t mention to the victim what’s going on, well, how could they know.

About the Isan people and surgery of noses. Wouldn’t it be more interesting to write about this fashion of surgery on a higher level, a lot of Thai people do it and a lot of people in many countries of the world are doing it(?). Not doing that is what I call unfair.

 

 

 


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comment 43
Lalida date : 16/04/2008 time : 13.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

DKO,

I will not debate any further of your personal view as it is your right to do so and your own preference. I have made my point and so did you. I guess we have agreed with each other to a certain extend. It's been fun and enjoyable of this debate. Thanks and appreciated. Now lets go on and see if and other topic we have disagreement on....
comment 42
DKO date : 16/04/2008 time : 11.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Hi Lalida,

The home "subject".
I personally don't consciously compare (nor am I thinking very often “which is better” as most times using you words its "oranges and apples”.

For example. I see many house shops here in Thailand. My subconscious mind compares that to seeing very few (or none) where I lived in the UK and Spain. My conscious brain is only thinking that its unusual and different in my past experiences AND that house shops are very CONVENIENT.

If I moved to another country would I compare it with Thailand? Yes (and UK and Spain) but not at conscious level. Would comparison with Thailand have any positive thoughts about Thailand.

Yes you bet I would Lalida.but I hope I never leave Thailand as I love Thailand for many specific reasons (and as a whole).

As you say how do you compare a BMW with Toyota as they have different weakness and strengths. Yes that’s I correct so some thing are directly comparable (facts) which is faster, uses less fuel for example. However most comparisons are based purely upon what is important and relevant to the comparer. Don’t you agree?. Each comperer will have differing views.

Example as you mention cars. we have recently bought anew car after much thinking which was best for us.

I thought a Jazz was best for us and my wife thought a Toyota pickup was.

My wife compared them and felt the Pickup’s positives outweighed the negatives: namely, the pickup was big, impressive, safer if in an accident, able to carry more shopping and items AND because it can carry the extended family and friends when we go out.

I felt the Jazz’s positives outweighed the negatives, namely; because we live all the time in Khon Kaen city, the Jazz is small, its easy for parking and driving down small sois, very economical on fuel, cheaper insurance and because it CANNOT carry the extended family and friends when we go out

( I am just trying to wind you up on the last reason Lalida - JUST JOKING -my extended family is wonderful and I am always happy to be with them.

OK if you force me to make just a few of comparisons of Spain, UK and Thailand as to which is best in a few specific area only (in my opinion).

Beautiful scenery
1 Thailand (by far), 2 Britain (just) 3 Spain

Shops (variety and availability (in cities and towns outside the capital cities)
1 UK (by far) 2 Thailand 3 Spain (the area I lived in Costa Blanca)

Cost of Living
1) Thailand (by far) 2 Spain 3 UK (extremely expensive)

Language
1 UK (obviously I am English ) 2 Spain (uses the roman alphabet like Enlgish does ) 3 Thailand (very hard for those used to the Roman Alphabet for speaking, reading and writing).



I have given these off the top of my head as you have asked but Lalida it is not a competition for me.

What can I say? I love Thailand I do not wish to look to move else where. There are a few things I personally would prefer to be different in Thailand but in no way do they affect my overall liking for and desire to remain in Thailand.

Hope I have answered you questions to your satisfaction and understanding

Your question regarding hearing “Farang” often.

Yes Lalida I agree, accept and understand Farang is a very common word used in Thailand and that Thais commonly discuss and use the word whether a farang is present or not. I also accept that not being able to speak Thai means I will be very aware when I hear one of the very few words I do know, such as “Farang”.


Having said that, although I cannot speak Thai, I am observant and I notice glances, voice tones and the unconscious body language of others. Of course some conversations will mention “farang” whether I am present or not, but I genuinely believe most times I can tell the difference.

You may ask “how can I be sure” and my answer would be;
Most of the time I am with my wife – that’s how we BOTH like it. When I first came here to Thailand we used minibuses for over a year. After hearing the word “farang” SO OFTEN within seconds of us entering mini buses (and often repeated) I started asking my wife if people were talking specifically about me (or me being with her) when I though they were (and not just speaking generally).

Thais are open and do not whisper, so my wife was able to hear the context of conversations. 9 times out of 10 I was correct in thinking I was the reason for the conversation involving the word “farang”.

I no longer ask my wife as I trust my own instincts. It’s a sort of sixth sense we all have when we are the subject of attention. I think you know what I mean Lalida. For example; a pretty girl will sense when men walk past her which ones will look back at her and which will not. I have been overweight and so has my brother for most of our lives. We both usually knew which persons passing us would look back or not. 6th sense, eye contact or body language - I honestly don't know Lalida but we knew.

Consequently, I agree with Ian's observation: A4: as being correct, based upon MY personal experiences

Lalida it’s not an issue or criticism but merely an observation (and at first a surprise to me as I was new to Thai ways and culture).

Oh nearly forgot
In case you were wondering. We bought the Toyota Pick-up
comment 41
wch date : 16/04/2008 time : 10.51

“Thai people don’t know how to plan”.

WCH also said same. Look at the Rice issue, and observe how they deal it.
comment 40
Ian date : 15/04/2008 time : 22.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Alphabet people, you started the fashion Lalida, in your abcde days, they xyzz and then 12345
comment 39
Lalida date : 15/04/2008 time : 19.02
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

OH! make it more accurate, compare your feet to your hand, which is more useful?
comment 38
Lalida date : 15/04/2008 time : 18.56
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Sorry not GKI it's DKO.

There's too many Alphabet people I know of and is driving me crazy...
comment 37
Lalida date : 15/04/2008 time : 18.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

GKI,

Let me just quote 2 para of yours to make my point:

"I do feel (not that it bothers me) that Ian was correct in his observation in another Blog that when a Farang goes somewhere he often hears the word Farang said aloud (and many times) is common)when a Farang enters a place (minibus especially).

So, I want to ask you, what is it so special of such incident? did evetybody on the bus turn their head and start staring at the Farang? If they did, then this word means something special, if they didn't that means it's only another common word in Thai. If you have blended in as understading the "Thai ways of talking" you wouldn't take note of it either, right? It is you and everyone who is not Thai not trying or willing to accept this word as a common word in our languages. Well, is it our fault then or should we adjust our language to suit forenigners hearing?

""No Place like Home" rue but “Home” has many meanings Lalida. I love and am proud of my country but I feel at home here and I consider Thailand is now my home"

Fair and more than good enough, let say you have some other unforseen reason that you have to move on to another country. Are you going to compare that country to Thailand that you loved, will there be any positive results. What I'm saying is, once you compare you'll never get the answer cos simply each have their unique style of culture and living style. Compare a BMW with a Toyota, how are you going to decide which one to get. BMW symbols wealth, status because is expensive and high fuel comsuption and sure it got its good performance and reputation as well. Toyota on the other consumes less fuel and is much cheaper and is a symbol of middle class and performace wise might not be any less than the BMW, maitainence are much less expensive as the BMW. So each have the good end of it and also the bad side of it and the equality of it. So, how to decide which one is better?
comment 36
Ian date : 15/04/2008 time : 15.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, you are very right in one thing and it is something I very much regret, I am indeed trapped in a well. I am actually more restricted now than when I lived in Bangkok.
there are several reasons, my animals, I have cats, birds and fish, also I grow many plants and vegetables. But my biggest problem are a local group of hooligans who would take delight in destroying things if the house was empty. Yes, I have Thai friends, but they are all scared of this bunch of youths with their tattoos and motorbikes.
This is my real grievence with Thailand, decent people look away when they see something wrong, or as my gf says they shut their doors and windows.
comment 35
Lalida date : 15/04/2008 time : 13.41
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

DKO,

I'll come back to you later, going to play water with friends visiting us.
comment 34
Lalida date : 15/04/2008 time : 13.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ian,

Take my word, I wish I have and trust me I hope I did misunderstood you. How you behave in your own home I have no comment. Outside your house you mentioned “I try my best to be Thai, I can't sit like a Thai, I can't eat spicy food, I can't drink non-stop for 4 hours every night, but in all other respects I try to adjust.” Sitting like a Thai, eating like a Thai, non-stop for 4 hrs every night.

Even if you can do all that it doesn’t make you a Thai, like I’ve said to DKO, many things that we do you might not able to do, but just bent a little or try to find out why they do it in such a way and get to understand it, is all we ask instead of criticizing it without understanding it. Seen the commercial “Poor”, the guy half drunk drinking and shouting poor? And the msg follow by “getting drunk gets you no where?” Now is a common joke among Thais. Some might be addicted alcohol; some just might want a piece of mind. Did you try to find out having your own favorite drink sitting with them or try to look at the other side of it.

There’s a reason to everything, you’re an Englishman, English people like to drink when there’s a crowd to chat around with, isn’t that true? Is “PUB” not a famous word known all over the world? Do we criticize this behavior, I don’t think anyone in the world do, that’s your culture, that’s your fun, Thais nowadays find the fun out of it too, haven’t you seen “PUBs” in BKK are line up with Thais as well?

Ian truthfully, your problems with Thais are you’re looking at Thais from your village, not as a whole. Your assumption is all Thais are the same through the eyes of your village, just take note of how many times you have mentioned that, Why do I call you a frog in a well when I’m angry with you? Your sympathy towards the poor I can understand but your approach is at wrong direction, walk out your village and travel a bit with your gf around Thailand just might give you another view of Thailand and Thai people. You are trap in your own time. Start to walk out a little bit and compromise and that just mught make you happier in Thailand.

I don't agree many things in my country, the way they drive, the way the government handle accident problems, the way they allow venders blocking the walk path and people have to wlk outside the road and I see many things as farang sees that's why if you notice my various comments will include "I have no arguement of what they say".
Look on both side of the road when you cross. Simple theory. Logical or not?
comment 33
Ian date : 15/04/2008 time : 13.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

DKO, indeed so, Thais like to visit me just to see how farangs live:-) My gf is contantly pestered with questions about my house design and my lifestyle, why is it so cool even with the aircon off (I have thermally insulated my roof), why do I have a bath as well as a shower ( a soak can be more effective and relaxing). Why don't I buy an expensive car (taxis are very cheap and I prefer to let someone else fight the traffic).
What do I eat, how do I sleep, why do I spend so much money on my cats, why don't I wear designer clothes, why am I not ostentatious with my money?

In England I often go barefoot in the garden, even in winter I used to wear sandals. My biggest problem was not adjusting to being barefoot but learning how to run in flip-flops. Thais use the "shuffle" but I find this inelegant so have perfected the "toe grip" style:-)
comment 32
DKO date : 15/04/2008 time : 11.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Ian

Your question:
There are already three cultures in Thailand, Thais, Chinese, and Moslem, perhaps Isaan is another, why can't Farang culture also coexist?

Deep within my earlier reply (probably lost in the long winded waffle - sorry) I was agreeing with you . In my experience so far my and Thai culture do seem to co-exist very well. I find Thais and I have no problems with the differences whatsoever. Often it refreshingly different and intriguing for both me and Thais that I meet or mix with.

I find the Thais a lovely and warm people where I live in Khon Kaen and we get on very well. Neither is interested in changing the other. I of course respect the fact I am the foreigner here and this is Thailand and things are done differently over here.

When I first got here I lived in my wife's Aunt's house so my shoes were off (even though I did not like the custom and I felt it less hygienic (IMHO).

I said to my wife "when we move out I will always wear shoes (only in my house) and she can follow her culture. Visitors can do either, as they so wish".

Now we have moved out, I do NOT wear shoes in my house (occasionally very thin house slippers). I have adapted to my hosts ways

( but when I stub my toe on a table leg or tread on a staple I must admit during the pain I am not TOO appreciative of the Thai custom of bare feet)

THAT'S LIFE - always interesting
comment 31
DKO date : 15/04/2008 time : 11.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Hi Lalida, thanks for your informative response and I accept what you say AND explanations where I misunderstood your original wording.

No I have not been celebrating with too much alcohol. I have been hiding after my motorbike accident on the 11th due to the water throwing. Well maybe a tiny bit of alcohol (but not yesterday).

Your comment
"They learn to respect the law, East learn to challenge the law. Correct me if I’m wrong".

I personally think for Thais it is more a matter of “we have not used them in the past and we continue to do what we always have done” and many do not know/understand the logic or see the need. This I feel is based partly upon pride and freedom of independent personal choice (many countries people feel this way) and lack of available education on the positive merits for the genuine safety reasons of some laws.

Add the fact that fines are quite low, seldom get harsher with repeated offence and enforcement minimal and patchy and you trend to find that people choose to do what they personally like (human nature)

I feel there are 2 main reasons why Western countries in particular obey the Law more as a population (especially Traffic Law) is

1) The police forces enforce the law much more rigorously.
2) We get much more TV, newspaper and educational exposure, statistics supporting the safety reasons for compliance with the law and people see the logic of helmets, seat belts etc.


Regarding an American Asian or American Thai (or UK for that matter).
Yes that is what they would be probably called and yes some are prejudiced and consider them not real Americans or British, BUT please believe me the majority WOULD consider them American or British.

Now by comparison (that word again) My Thai (but farang looking) stepson I believe will always thought of as an OVERSEAS Farang and never a Thai Farang.

I believe the West is more used to other races being born in our lands, so we tend to assume they are most likely to be fellow countrymen/women. Thailand has much less Farangs and mostly they ARE foreign. Consequently I believe Thais first assumption will be that my stepson is not a Thai (and it will be an incorrect assumption). Please correct me if you feel I am mistaken Lalida

) I do not criticize, just observe and give my belief on this matter.

If I am honest Lalida, I also think Thailand is more class and race conscious (please note I used the word “conscious” and NOT racist which is totally different) than we Brits/the West are at present.

I do feel (not that it bothers me) that Ian was correct in his observation in another Blog that when a Farang goes somewhere he often hears the word Farang said aloud (and many times) is common)when a Farang enters a place (minibus especially). In Britain if a Thai, Black Asian got on a bus nobody would probably notice or think anything at all. Certainly you would never here Black, Asian or whatever, said many times during the journey.

;) Once again Lalida this is a cultural observation based upon ongoing personal experience in Thailand and not a criticism of Thais

I personally do not regard "Comparison" as a thing to Dig in on, merely a reference tool.

"No Place like Home" rue but “Home” has many meanings Lalida. I love and am proud of my country but I feel at home here and I consider Thailand is now my home (whether others see it that way or not).

For me, the saying "Home is where your heart is" is very true and my I heart is her in Thailand with my Thai wife and stepson. I AM home.

Of course I still love my homeland but I do not yearn to be back there. I think this is good, because looking back with longing and regret is the biggest block on integration and acceptance.

As you CORRECTLY suggested Lalida, who wants foreigners to keep saying "it’s better in my home country". -Nobody likes that and the reasonable, understandable natural reaction is “well go back there then”. That is how some Spaniard felt about some Brits when I lived in Spain who wanted a “Little England” and refused to try to integrate. I agreed with the Spanish 100%.

However, I do think comparison (by itself) is sometimes misunderstood “as Farangs saying it is better in their homelands” when in fact often they are really only saying it is DIFFERENT (and not inferring better unless they specifically say that). I suppose when in another’s country its our duty to be more careful and ensure our intentions, actions and meanings are correctly and fully understood.

This has been an interesting and educational debate for me.

PS my login keeps timing out on me when I come to 'post" surely I am not being too long in my replies

(I now save locally before posting as I lost my very first blog as I was unaware of the time outs - good start eh??? ).
comment 30
Ian date : 15/04/2008 time : 11.02
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida, I think you have misunderstood me ever since you have known me:-) I live in two cultures, inside my house I am a westerner, I have all the modern conveniences that I take for granted when in England. A modern kitchen full of gadgets, a full size bath, aircon in every room, etc, etc. Outside my house I try my best to be Thai, I can't sit like a Thai, I can't eat spicey food, I can't drink non stop for 4 hours every night, but in all other respects I try to adjust.
I am desperately trying to learn Thai to improve my ability to communicate, I know my gf often filters things to suit her own purposes. Indeed when you argue with me about Thai culture you are really often arguing with her rather than with me:-) She is from the deep south and has a poor opinion of most Bangkokians.
Yes, I want to integrate with Thais, but it seems there are many kinds of Thais, even in my village. What is worse each kind seems to hate the other kind. I see Thais very much as a polarised society, rich and poor, city and countryside. I am moderately rich but my sympathies are with the poor, I grew up in a city but love the countryside. Even in England I don't fit, so it is no surprise I don't fit in Thailand:-)
With a few exceptions my best friends have always been animals, and with them I don't have communication problems.
comment 29
Lalida date : 15/04/2008 time : 01.35
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ian,

I quote "There are already three cultures in Thailand, Thais, Chinese, and Moslem, perhaps Issan is another, why can't Farang culture also coexist? "

Take a good look in this blog sites, is it Thais that does not wish to coexist with you or is it you do not want to coexist with the Thais?

Have you played SongKrang yet, do you really think most Thai don't want to coexist with the farang or V.V.

How often do you hear Thais complain about farang in this blog and how often do you hear complain about Thais in this Blog? You youeself can be one of the living facts, I don't mind if you think I'm offending you but I'm telling you the fact.
comment 28
Lalida date : 15/04/2008 time : 01.27
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

DKO my man,

You know what I did, I cut and paste your comment to office words to answer it bit by bit to make sure I get it right this time, so hear me my friend.

When I talk about Blending in not meaning having you to change your life style or change your own culture that you’re born with, but try to see what we see, try to feel how we feel, try to add one more perspective looking through the environment you’re in on the East side. For example, if I open a Thai restaurant in England, the only way I can get customers in is to cook Thai food to the taste of the English, If I cook it the original way. Everyone will come in with a fire extinguisher or won’t come in at all. What I’m saying is bent your perspective to the east a little bit to suit the environment you’re in and not changing it.

If you’re talking about the law, you can forget it and I truly hope you will not follow, such as plastic helmet just to get away with the fine, speeding at 160mpk as if he’s looking for a short cut to the toilet, cutting lanes as if he owns the road. These are all no, no to blend in or change to and these are not what I’m talking about. Let’s put it this way, Asian are the worst kind of people followings rules and it’s all in front of your eyes, look at Taiwan, Malaysia, Hong Kong, China, Indonesia or any part on earth where Asians concentrates. I wouldn’t say westerners are more obedient but they are brought up in a culture very different from the East. They learn to respect the law, East learn to challenge the law. Correct me if I’m wrong.

You ask “ Which version of Thai-ness and culture do I adopt and blend in with to be accepted by the majority of Thais? The Thai legal version or, what most Thais actually do.”

Is neither of the version you mentioned nor anything that we do that you should adapt to. As a grown up, you should know what is right and what is wrong. As to what we do, you might not be able to do the same but how about accepting it and try to find out why we do it such a way, so you can understand much more about us instead of turning your head and say “In my country we………”, “In English culture we……….”. Hey! Brother, you’re standing on the soil in the East and dug in. West is on the other side of the earth. It might be wrong to you but have you found out the reasons yet before you decided it’s wrong for us too?

You suggest (if I understand you correctly) that Farangs need to compromise, even change or convert much of their ways to blend in and live in Thailand and leave many of their attitudes, culture and ways behind them.

Sorry, D Knock out. I’m not even close to anything meaning that except a need to compromise, the rest read the above.

Yet if we succeed we will still never be accepted and will always be considered an Alien. Not much incentive is there Lalida?

Correct, not even a bit of incentive… No matter what you do or how you succeed of blending yourself in, you’re still the little green man in our eyes and that is a fact of human nature. Look at the Thai in America, what do they call them. America Thais or Asian American, do they not speak English like a native, do they not drive on the wrong side of the road, do they not hold up the American Flag when the president drove by and do they tell you “I’m a Thai? No right? so why are they still call Asian American or American Thai? Make it closer to your homeland, England. Do you call a Chinese a Chinese even he is born there or do you call him my English fellowman? Think about it DKO of what I’m trying to say.

You are suggesting Thais look down on Farangs and do not wish to accept us on individual merit or as equals. How do we please Thais and blend in then?

Ai yai yai, Did you had a little bit too much to drink going on a SongKrang party this evening? I did not suggest anything as you mentioned, who dares? Want to be squash in here….We accept anyone who accept us as a Thai and our perspective as a Thai and living our culture as a Thai and welcomes you to understand us more as a partial Thai even you are still the little green man in our eyes.

The trouble is that most Farangs feel and in their hearts (including me) know you are being truthful and are correct, and it is hard to blend with those who never wish to fully accept us no matter what we do or who we are.

Did anyone on earth told you humans are perfect?

Lalida, what’s wrong with “comparison”? I do not understand.

I’m just going to answer this one. What’s wrong? First tell me how you compare an orange to an apple, shape, taste, color and how about the feel when you had a bit and chew it, Can you chew and swallow the orange peel but sure you can eat the apple without being peeled, right?

Everyone will agree East and West are totally different not to mention we’re part of the third world country. So why compare us from where you come from, where your culture is totally different from us, why compare our life style to yours, we eat our food with chilies and you eat yours with tomato sauce. Let me ask you in return, do you think there will be any positive results when you compare yourself to your brother? Or make it more relevant in this Blog, how about comparing you yourself to Ian. Get what I mean now? Does that answer your question?

You seem to fear all comparisons will are negative.

Wrong, there’s no fear in me of comparison. Is I don’t see the point to it, to compare where’s the best place to dig in? MY idea is when you start comparing, there’s no place like home….true?

DKO really, reading on your comment I felt you have totally misunderstood my msg about blending in and comparison. I hope the above had made my point a little more clear of what I’m trying to say. If still unclear to you, please come back for more clarification, I do not wish to be misunderstood na ja.

comment 27
Ian date : 14/04/2008 time : 22.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

DKO, earlier on you said us Brits had the advantage of coming from a multicultural society. Just perhaps, Thailand needs to move a step in this direction, celebrate our differences, embrace them. If she could visit the Nottinghill Gate Carnival she might understand what I mean. There is no such thing as a perfect culture, but we can work towards it and one step might be to develop cultural tolerance. There are already three cultures in Thailand, Thais, Chinese, and Moslem, perhaps Issan is another, why can't Farang culture also coexist?
comment 26
DKO date : 14/04/2008 time : 21.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Hi Lalida,

I agree with most of what you say but I feel you overstate the need to blend in and convert as you describe it .

I of course agree one should try and blend in and when in Rome do as the Romans. I did this in Spain when I was there and I am trying to do so here.

Now I know this next question is a little “cute” BUT it is fair and genuine.
Should we Farangs when we come to live here in Thailand blend in and do mostly what Thais do or do we do obey Thai law (which by the is a Visa requirement)?

You may feel this a very strange question (or even mischievous) but its not meant to be, I am seriously trying to show that it is very difficult to blend in and it is not all my fault as a Farang

Lets looks at one example.

Should I wear a crash helmet and have a Thai driving license and be insured?
Yes I believe so, and this is based on my Farang and personal values that I should obey the law of the country I am in (whether different from my own or not) and it makes sense.

Most of my wife’s Thai friends feel I should relax and not be so obedient, they joke and ask why my wife has just gone on a motorbike training course and bothered taking the driving test (which she just passed by the way).

I obey the laws (and hope my wife will do so). I tell them (WHEN PUSHED) I feel all should obey the Laws of Thailand and I have no pity for those caught and fined by police for disrespecting Thai traffic Laws which I feel were implemented to help and protect everybody.

OK, here is my dilemma (which I feel I cannot win). Which version of Thai-ness and culture do I adopt and blend in with to be accepted by the majority of Thais? The Thai legal version or, what most Thais actually do.

Of course I obey the Law as required by my Visa terms and because I think it the morally correct and wise.

You suggest (if I understand you correctly) that Farangs need to compromise, even change or convert much of their ways to blend in and live in Thailand and leave many of their attitudes, culture and ways behind them. Yet if we succeed we will still never be accepted and will always be considered an Alien. Not much incentive is there Lalida? You are suggesting Thais look down on Farangs and do not wish to accept us on individual merit or as equals. How do we please Thais and blend in then?

The trouble is that most Farangs feel and in their hearts (including me) know you are being truthful and are correct, and it is hard to blend with those who never wish to fully accept us no matter what we do or who we are.

Your PARTICULAR comment:
You want to be accepted or you want to accept the other, you first have to throw the word "Comparison" away and accept that you are in the East. Of course such behavior may not be acceptable to the west but do you think they will change it just for your sake? Do you think they will apologize to you because having to coupe with you. You're a alien to them, remember? No matter how long you stay and how hard you try, to them you are always an alien.

Lalida, what’s wrong with “comparison”? I do not understand. You have made a couple of indirect comparison in the above comment namely
1) “Of course such behavior may not be acceptable to the west but do you think they will change it just for your sake?”

2) “you first have to throw the word "Comparison" away and accept that you are in the East”.

I believe making comparisons (correctly used or not) is universal and humanly unavoidable. Our brains and development operate on experiences, comparisons and analysis.

You seem to fear all comparisons will are negative. There are many comparisons I can make and say that I like and believe the Thai version is better. I compare Thailand, UK and Spain with each other (as these are areas I have knowledge of) and have decided I like and love Thailand and that’s why I am here. Sure, I would not human or truthful if I said I thought everything in Thailand was perfect or better (but then the same applies to the UK and Spain.

Lalida your comments above seem a little of a challenge (or only “game plan”) for Farangs wishing to live happily and integrate in Thailand. You seem to suggest that Thais will never accept us or wish to, beyond a basic level of politeness and tolerance.

Additionally I have not suggested nor inferred Thais should apologize or adjust Thai ways or culture to accommodate my sensitivities and meet my ways or culture?

:) Maybe I should pat the stomach of a fat Thai next time I see one, and say “baby”
I wonder if he will smile like I always do and feel I am “doing as the Thais do and trying to integrate” I think not!! There is a limit to how much any society wishes another to blend in. Go to far and it will be interpreted as “Taking the Mick” (making fun of the hosts)

Seriously, I value and respect Thai culture and its differences to my own (and would also if Thais were in MY Country. I have not found any Thais wishing me to change, blend, adjust or convert. It’s just never been an issue. We seem to enjoy and celebrate our differences which so far have never been an issue and I do not see any issues in the future

I blend where I can, and when I understand. Where or when I cannot I quietly do my own thing and ensure I offend no one. If there was to be an issue of the Thai way or mine then I bow down IMMEDIATELY to the Thai way, as this is Thailand and I am a guest here. But Lalida I honestly have NEVER found there to an issue of ONE or the OTHER must prevail?

Sitting on Floors :)
Ian mentions he has trouble sitting on floors. At 145 kilos I certainly do and getting up is my biggest problem and is very difficult. (when I occasionally sit on the floor). Seeing the way get up often gives many a Thai a sympathetic chuckle and I know it looks amusing: first I turn turn on all fours, bring my legs and arms closer together, then I push up hard and hope there is enough spring to straighten up AND remain standing :)

I find that Thais do not demand or expect it of me to sit on floors. They have always been VERY kind, they know I CAN do it (JUST ) but they nearly always offer me a stool. Even my wife's chief abbot invites me to sit on the bench next to him - I am very conscious I should hold my head at a lower level than him AT LEAST, out of respect, but he seems to have no such concerns. He recognizes I mean no disrespect. Although not of my religion I GREATLY respect and admire him and his values and I like him. His deputy is also very similar and extremely pleasant.

I hope Lalida you understand what I am trying to say and that I am discussing not attacking your views. At th end of the day I am a Brit and you are a Thai and neither of us if we lived in each others countries would be able to see things though our new countries eyes fully, nor would avoid comparisons,

I know Thais living overseas. Some prefer their new home. Most I admit are homesick and wish to come home to Thailand if their husbands can do so. Do I think badly of those wishing to go home and preferring Thailand? No it is natural and what they are used to. Do I feel they should come home now as would prefer Thailand? No of course not

The big words I feel for intercultural good relations are understanding, patience, compromise, respecting the differences (even embracing them in some cases) and as you so correctly say adjustment and tolerance. Cherish the positives and accept the negatives and if that is not possible live with the negatives and put them into reasonable proportion on what is important in life.

Lalida I appreciate you views and interpretations. I have been here but 2 years and try as I may I know I can never expect to understand Thailand, Thais and its culture.

It’s disappointing knowing that if I live here to the end of my days (maybe 25 years more) I will still be considered no more than an Alien farang (and all that infers) by most Thais

Sorry ANOTHER Marathon (should have seen the first draft)
comment 25
Ian date : 14/04/2008 time : 15.27
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Lalida makes some valid points and I think it depends where you are, if say I am in Bangkok or somewhere distant from my home base, then I am a stranger and do my best to conform. In my home village I see things slightly differently, my Thai friends accept that I am foreign and have a different culture, they not only instruct me in their culture but find it fun to adopt mine, for example only strangers sawadee and wai, all the locals wave and say Hi, or if children "Hi uncle Ian":-)
They don't understand the hygiene of why I object to them peeing against my wall, but they have stopped doing it, further if they have any medical problem they will consult me.
The point I am trying to make is that both Thai and western cultures have good and bad aspects, when you live together try to build on the good in both cultures and reject the bad.
When out with the masses just accept and don't make waves.
comment 24
Ian date : 14/04/2008 time : 15.16
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

DKO, a marathon comment
Let me deal first with smilies, insert them as you type no problem, insert them afterwards they come at the end of the text, in which case just grab and drag to where you wanted them, like any text editor.
I agree that with some smilies the meanings can be open to several interpretations, for instance looks like sticking one's tongue out, a raspberry, but because the tongue is at an angle, many including me, take it to mean the comment was tongue in cheek. Equally the goodbye one is missing, so some mistakenly use which has a very unfriendly meaning.
I am also left handed, and even amongst my Indian friends this has never been a problem. Even less so in Thailand, all my Thai friends accept that there are things we farangs cannot do even if we want to do so, I just cannot sit on the floor Buddha style they automatically find me something to sit on if I visit them.
The only problem I have found with being left handed is the Thai alphabet is very designed for a right handed person, pull the pen not push it.
Thais are so tactile it can be a shock, the first time a Thai woman grabbed my naked thigh it made me jump But I think a certain level of friendship has first to be achieved, and I think it is more common from women and children.
comment 23
Lalida date : 14/04/2008 time : 13.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

I have read both of your comments and sort of disagree with it. Both of you are talking about tolerance, acceptance, behavior of each nationality and both of you have forgotten the most important issue when one move into another enviroment. That is blend in, most foreginers living in Thailand has this problem. They bring their western prospective looking at the East and they compare, what my people in my country do, what our culture is like compare to yours. It's like comparing an orange to an apple. How can it be the same. You want to be accepted or you want to accept the other, you first have to throw the word "Comparison" away and accept that you are in the East. Of course such behavior may not be acceptable to the west but do you think they will change it just for your sake? Do you think they will apologize to you because having to coupe with you. You're a alien to them, remember? No matter how long you stay and how hard you try, to them you are always an alien. So my idea is try, try to blend in, try to be one of them, don't take certain act as offensive if not meant to insult you. Take it as a joke and I'm sure he/she will be equally amuse if you return the same kind of joke about them.Such as calling you a farang, you can return by saying " I heard you're called a farang too when you go up to e-san, No?" and you see a conversation starts from there.
comment 22
DKO date : 14/04/2008 time : 13.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Ian,

Must admit I too can react quickly at times, and later in the cold light of day sometimes think better or would have softened my approach. Hopefully if I do react I like to think it is at an acceptable an suitably diplomatic level whilst still making my point or feelings known.

I suppose it often depends often on how sensitive or passionate a person is about something and also how many sensitivities one has (and sometimes their knowledge, race, culture and perceptions have am important bearing as well)

I have often cringed at something someone has said and yet the recipient has genuinely not even noticed (even when offence WAS intended). On the other hand some are very sensitive, easily hurt and react quickly (we are all different) and sometimes I have to think deeply about why and how they reacted -occasionally I cannot see why (but then I am not them or in their minds).

I think (speaking in general - WITHOUT laying any blame or pointing of fingers) that the two extremes are the MOST problematical.

If one does not see softened hints or warning flags to back off or appreciate sensitivity has been touched then that can lead to serious confrontation. Sometimes not directly, or at the time but later on another different sensitive subject and the whole lot surfaces in one go. I know this one (as I am guilty of doing this at times). Someone hurts me, I say nothing, they hurt me again I still say nothing or I pass light hint which goes unnoticed (or possibly ignored), we move on and another issue come up and my sensitivity is hurt anew (the previous issues are still a little painful and remembered and I react (big) on latest issue. The recipient is “gobsmacked” as they see the current issue in isolation (and correctly see it as a small issue). They are totally unaware of past and building "biting of tongue" issues. I, on the other hand regard their latest comment “as the straw that broke the camels back”.

Who is to blame (if anybody)? Possibly BOTH, but as they say "nobody is perfect" and "to err is human". The first person may be to blame for a lack of sensitivity and awareness over a period of time, and I may well be to blame for not mentioning my hurt feeling earlier, when it could have been nicely discussed and nipped any possible unpleasantness in the bud and whilst it was only a minor sensitivity.

Over sensitivity can also be a major difficulty where even the most diplomatic person can sometimes not find a diplomatic path “for love or money” to tread (apart from silence). Occasionally the more they try to restore the “status quo” the worse it sometimes seems to get, because sensitivities (sometime on BOTH sides) have stopped each from seeing the “wood from the trees” or what each is TRYING to say.

Of course there are those who don't care and voice their opinions how they wish and as they feel fit, irrespective of whom the recipients or readers are, or what their natures may me.

Then again no two people will see things exactly the same way (not even like minds) and some have less diplomatic methods. Some can actually get antagonized by diplomatic or soft or indirect wording seeing it as cleverly worded criticism (OR completely miss the point) whilst others will regard it as a correct and nice way of making a point without intention to offend or belittle others with different views.

Now this difference I feel is strong in West and Thai cultures. Occasionally I have said something and my wife says it may have been better to say it more indirect and in a different way. By Western standards it was pleasant and diplomatic and non aggressive. On the other hand I have often said to my wife “why didn’t you or they explain to me, and she says “well they did not wish to risk offending you so they said it a Thai indirect way.

The reality is that we ARE all different and it is impossible to expect all people to see things the same way.

For example some say black is a colour. Some will give scientific logic why it should not be considered a colour. Some will come back with “I hear what you say but I disagree” others with “well sorry but for me black is a colour” others will try to expand or detour the debate and ask something like “how do how people know everybody’s eyes see black the same” BUT SOME will just come back with “well if you think black is not a colour then you are Bl**dy stupid, and so are those who agree with you.

Now most are saying they think black is a colour, but most people I would feel or respond negatively to the tone of the last comment (not to writer’s opinion, but the unnecessary, unpleasant tone and choice of wording).

--

I agree with you Ian on body language 100%, and to be honest Smilies can be very valuable to give a clue to the thinking of the writer with a given comment. I worked in a Sales Support admin department where body language was used as a selling tool for sales agents. Body language and recognising it (usually at a sub conscious level) is very helpful and important with human communication. On a side issue: faked or contrived body language (IF recognized) can be annoying however as it can be seen as an intention to deceive and CAN deceive if not recognised.

---

I find choice of words can cause a lot of confusion. For me if some one has saddened me by a comment I would say “I am upset about what you have said” I mean I am hurt or sad. Some other Brits or Westerners however and I find MOST non native English speakers cannot see my distinction between the words upset and angry (or cross).

Now IF I am angry I would say I am cross or angry or very cross or very angry BUT for me very upset would actually mean very saddened or hurt and in no way angry. For me this is a big difference in what I tried to say and what others may think I mean. It shows just how easy it is to accidentally give the wrong impression to somebody without ever realizing it, and how important and carefully one has to be with their choice of wording on a multicultural blog site where not only can you not see body language but with the Nations Web blog there are many cultures and peoples all with widely differing languages, and phraseology. Add to that many are dealing with a second or third language by blogging in English – (in my opinion to a very high standard. Some may not use perfect English all the time but few of us native speakers fail to understand what is essentially being said).

--
Smilies as you say help with the written word and I believe are importantly underused bearing in mind body language or facial expression cannot be seen or voice tone cannot be heard. A comment may be read by most without a Smilie read as very angry BUT an “tear” Smilie suggests the writer is hurt (sad) not angry, or if there is “big smile” Smilie it confirms the words are a joke or not th be taken seriously. Three major difference of interpretation could occur without a Smilie to aid (interpretation) which may evoke vastly different responses depending on how the words are read leading to great humour and further jokes, sympathy or perhaps a war or words. (all for the want of a Smilie).

Ian, I am finding the Nations Web Blog Smilies difficult because:

a) For a start they are very small on my VDU and I cannot tell some easily apart,
b) there seems to be some useful ones I’d like to see missing
c) when I point at them for selection there is no label suggesting what they infer (so each person has their own view on this)
d) when added to the text all you see is a basic letter/number code rather than a more useful code like LOL or "rolleyes” for instance (I have left out the colons in case the program tries to interpret them and you do not see what I typed.

d) I often go over my text and add Smilies where I feel interpretation may be mistaken, but the Nation blog input screen dumps the selected Smilie at the end of all the text (leading to a danger of misplacement and as the code in non descriptive I may add the wrong one (another potential cause for misunderstandings – an inappropriate Smilie accidentally used AND form what I can see there is no way to edit after the send button is pressed. OK I can do another correcting comment but a respondent may not get to before reacting to the original.

---
Ian, your comment about Thais being tactile I agree with and NOW I understand I quite like it as I know its meant in an interested or friendly way, most times.

However, when I first came here I was taken TOTALLY by surprise. I knew nothing (or very little about Thai or East Asian culture, so I bought a book “Thailand Fever” and also read up over the internet as much as I could about Thai culture.

I came with here with the 100% view that Thais are extremely conservative about touching (especially in public), that that the touching of a person's head in particular (and upper body) was a definite no - no and that feet were considered lowly by Thais so do not point them in a Thais direction when sitting..

Thais Wai rather than shake hands which all supported my initial beliefs about body contact.

I also understood that Thais favour the right hand and you should not offer items with the left. A NIGHTMARE for me being highly left handed. (on a test where right or left handed people would normally score 6 or 7 out of 10 . I scored 9 (only failing the knife and fork test and ONLY because my mum forced dining etiquette upon me for politeness to others - everything else she allowed to be left to nature).

I was afraid of offending Thais with my left handed instinctive habits, but to be honest either they are not worried, not offended - which I believe to be the case (or do not show offence).

Just goes to show with the best will in the World you cannot learn everything from books, nor should the written word of experts, close ones mind to what is experienced in the "real day to day” World.


Hmmmmmm… Oops I’ve done a long (VERY LONG waffle AGAIN!!!! Sorry to those STILL awake
comment 21
Ian date : 14/04/2008 time : 10.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

DKO, you mention your smiling face, this is very important, few people consciously realise how important body language is. In a blog body language is missing, in real life one can take the sting out of a comment with a grin, "smilies" help but not everyone uses them or understands them. Another problem is time zones, one can brood over a perceived insult for hours before clarification can be sought, often by then it is too late the damage has been done.
This is a generalisation but I think most Asians are more excitable/emotional than westerners, they react impulsively, see offense where none was intended and attack.

A change of topic, I normally go topless in my village, my stomach is large but not excessive. All the children and even some adults like to touch it. Watching Thais interact with each other they are a tactile people, far more than westerners, my gf often holds hands with someone when talking to them. I think my expanse of white skin is simply irresistable
comment 20
DKO date : 14/04/2008 time : 10.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/DKO

Hi Ian,

Yes I think that is fair comment.

Even my wife and I have a few unfortunate misunderstandings (arguments ) before one of us suddenly realizes that we are not on the same wavelength.

I also think we (non South East Asians) have a very wide and varying understanding of Thai (and South East Asian) cultures and sensitivities which also leads to problems and regrettable confrontations.

For example: In the UK I can joke about the monarchy, even criticize or insult individuals within it -even the Queen. I will be regarded, at worst, as being rude and disrespectful, some would actually agree and add to the insults or jokes. Now, in comparison, if I should do such a thing about Thai monarchy I would deeply offend 99.9% of the Thai population and probably be in legal trouble as well.

This example is nothing to do with right or wrong, whose culture is better etc. but it IS an excellent example how each culture perceives the same comments -nearly 100% opposite to each other. Yet BOTH cultures would consider their cultural interpretation as 100% normal within their own countries.

We all live and learn.

How I deal with my lack of cultural understanding in Thailand when faced with something unexpected (such as a stranger on a mini bus patting my enormous stomach and saying "baby") IS to NOT react and to immediately think FIRST:
a) do I think it is intended to offend me
b) are they smiling
c) is it LIKELY that their intention is to offend me. (this one, I feel is VERY, VERY important as it is easy to assume offence and react negatively based one ones own cultural views).

Nearly always the answer is obvious NO.

Therefore, although very strange (and sometimes rude) within MY culture I accept the various situations I meet in the spirit they were intended and I seldom have negative feelings or take offence.

As a consequence, I seem to get on very well with most (virtually people here). Luckily for me, they see my usually smiling face and if I have done something not quite correct according to Thai culture they too assume it is unintentional (which it is) and no offence is taken.

Now, if I react negatively or aggressively to the stomach patting (which in fact happens quite regularly) there would have been ill feeling and a many surprised/sad Thais wondering what on earth he/she had done to upset me.

I am always grateful when someone explains to me a cultural error I have made as I can try to avoid it in future. Sometimes I explain to my wife and other Thai friends how certain actions are seen within my culture (not as a "my culture is best" but from an awareness perspective. It all helps reduce the unintentional cultural divide and understanding.

"Sin Sod" (I am not intending to open the debate again) is a classic example of where one of the greatest need of cultural understanding is required, as all too often major misunderstanding seem to occur. Many occasions the Thais consider reluctance on the part of a foreigner as a lack of respect acceptance and understanding of important Thai culture, lack of love and devotion, insult to the Thai ladies parents, a matter of loss of face, even being stingy. On the other hand all too often the Westerners see it as unnecessary, expensive, buying a wife, one sided, and that his culture of “No Sin Sod” warrants equal respect and understanding and acceptance. There are many other reasons and thought processes that I have not mentioned here, but these seem to be the most common.

In truth, the whole subject is extremely complex and most of the problems involved are due to cultural perceptions rather than the man or woman being bad, unloving or unreasonable people. To be honest in my observations the matter is sometimes made much worse by the refusal of each to compromise/accept/budge an inch (not even a tiny bit) outside their own cultural views and opinions and then the big enemy STUBBORNESS steps into the situation .

Of course peer groups do not help either. The Thai Lady’s friends, family and acquaintances will expect and support the Thai tradition, and of course most of the “husband to be’s” friends, family and acquaintances will voice different probably opposing view points (most will live in the West and understandably have very little, or zero understanding of Sin Sod or its significance to Thais).

I genuinely believe that as Westerners are often more affluent than most Thais we consequentially travel overseas much more than Thai. Additionally, many Western countries (like the UK) are very multi racial and multi cultural which gives us a MASSIVE advantage in understanding that (and how) different peoples of the World view action, mannerisms and words. Consequently I feel it fair we should give most Thais more leeway over cultural perceptions and understandings of other Nations. I do NOT say this in a patronizing way, but from a “knowledge gained” perspective. I think it is fair to say a World traveller can be expected to be aware and have a greater understanding of cultural differences and sensitivities than maybe our mums or dads who may have never left the home country or only gone on a few shopping day trips across the sea to France.

Sorry long winded (one of my personal failings I am afraid. My English teacher used to say to me “why do you always say on 50 words what other can say in 10?

Even now I do not know the answer - I suppose a lack of eloquence is the truth.

Just my humble opinion. (for what its worth)
comment 19
Ian date : 13/04/2008 time : 20.37
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

DKO, I am often critical of some aspects of Thailand, just as I am even more critical of many aspects of British culture. I even once ran a blog, "what is wrong with England" just to show it was not all one way.
I think a problem many Thais have with Brits is a total lack of understanding of Brit culture, we poke fun at the things we love. Elswhere in these blogs today Catch called me an arsehole, I threatened him with some GBH. A Thai reader might take that seriously, but no Brit would do so. They would know we were fooling around.
Many of the fights in these blogs arise from cultural misunderstanding, and once a misunderstand arises it grows.
comment 18
DKO date : 13/04/2008 time : 20.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.