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Grassroots Philosophy in East and West
Walk the bridge between East and West (you see more when walking) and reopen the gate between inner and outer Man
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
Monday , February 25 , 2008
The Millionaire and the Time
Posted by talkfact , Reader : 412 , 13:28:25  
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There was a Thai millionaire who was very sick. Doctors said he had only one year left to live.

The millionaire wasn’t afraid of dying but ever since he was a boy he had tried to figure out what time was without success. He felt his life was not to be completed until his curiosity about time had been stilled.

One day there was in the papers and on television an announcement about the millionaire offering a reward of ten million Baht to any Thai citizen who could come forward with an explanation about what time was. Only the most outstanding explanations were to be considered for the reward and preferably they should include reference to real-life situations.

 The millionaire’s secretaries and assistants had a busy time sorting out all the incoming proposals, most arriving by regular mail. Some of the explanations were considered worth informing the millionaire about.

There was one explanation the millionaire really liked. It said that a temple was a time machine and no other place could compete with the temple in understanding about time. Of course, every Thai knew about that, at least subconsciously, although forgotten about from time to time, therefore this explanation could not be granted a reward.

Now, the millionaire visited the temple every day, to stay as close to time as possible. He and his assistant always went by a Tuk Tuk as he couldn’t get inside a taxi cab.

One day, this was during the rainy season, roads were flooded, after the visit to the temple the Tuk Tuk got stuck, engine failing as the water went up to the travelers feet splashing them wet. The millionaire, now in anger because this year’s rainy season was the worst in many years, demanded his portable chair to be placed on a hill by the roadside and then the assistant and the Tuk Tuk driver helped in getting the millionaire up on the hill. The millionaire then asked his two helpers to retreat out of sight.

The millionaire looked up at the rainy sky and let go of his anger. He asked the sky:

-Why you do this to me?

There was no answer. The millionaire asked again:

-Who are you?

-I am time.

-Do you have a name?

-Permanent Holiness.

-Never heard that before. That’s not a name.

-Hieronymus is my name.

-Never heard that either. May I call you Jerry?

-That’s all right. I’m Jerry.

-What’s your mission if I may ask?

-It’s me that is you.

-Are you crazy? What do you mean?

-If I weren’t you..you would not exist.

-You mean you are my Mind and I’m something else?

-Now, we are getting somewhere.

-What about me, then, what am I?

-You are matter. Physics.

-And you aren’t?

-That’s right. I’m not.

-I don’t feel like being just matter either, at least not only that. How can you say so?

-Because that part of you that feels itself being something more, that’s me and not you.

-Oho, you are something that’s similar for all people, right?

-Now we are getting somewhere.

-At least I’m my own history, ain’t I? I can experience my own changes and the changes around me and that’s history.

-So far you have made two conclusions. The first says you are physics and the second says you are history. There is one more thing that you are. Can you figure that out too?

-What is left? What can I do that you cannot do?

-Think again! Think deeper! What is beyond your horizon? What is looming ahead of you and what do you do about it?

-Hmm. Well. Longing, I do.

-That’s right. You do. I don’t. Now you have mapped all three that you are:

Physics. History. Longing.

The millionaire, who now had a stiff neck having stared at the sky during the conversation, lowered his head. He looked at the other two men sitting on another hill along the road, thinking: Here we are, all three of us, all different in physics, history and longing and yet so close, so similar, so united in that ungraspable substance we call time which wasn’t even a substance in the proper sense. But hadn’t he just caught it for a little while – hadn’t he just hold it in his hands for a little while, hadn’t his tongue just been talking to it and his ears just been listening to it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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comment 32
GGrass date : 03/03/2008 time : 16.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

Hair: I read you last comment, and I must say I get what you're saying... :-)

If you move very fast, the time slows down, until, you reach the speed of light, the time comes to complete stand still.

This means at the speed of light, you have all the time in the world to go from here to there, or do this and that because at this speed, time stands still.

But to get to the speed of light, you would have to use unimaginably large quantity of energy, and the more mass you have, the more energy you need.

E=mc^2, where E is the energy, m is the mass, c is the constant for speed of light. If you plug in any number for m, you would get E. But if m was zero, the equation tells us that E is zero too.

This means even if you were very very very small with very very little mass, (for instance, your body weighed 0.00001 gram) you would need tremendous amount of energy to excellerate yourself to reach the speed of light.

There is no way anything can reach the speed of light, because everything has mass, even if very small, and having mass prevents it from reaching the speed of light.

In order to reach the speed of light, it would have to lose all its mass, which is against the 'law of conservation of mass'.

But I'm sure smart people are trying to find out how this can be done... may be they succeeded already... My source of knowledge is so old you know...

Anyway, what this really tells us is, that if you completely lose yourself, and made yourself 'nonexistant', then you would at least be in the right condition to travel at the speed of light, and reach that 'stillness'.

Physically, it would be impossible to lose your body mass. But your mind is a very powerful thing, and with such power of your mind, it is possible to lose yourself.
comment 31
Lalida date : 03/03/2008 time : 15.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Hair,

Thanks for reply, it's more easy to understand this way then TF ha ha ha, sorry TF.

I guess it's similar to what I've mentioned as time is "existence deep within" then. question cleared..he he
comment 30
Hair date : 02/03/2008 time : 02.41
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/1432
Still is his mind -  Inclusive his heart - Compassionate his actions - And free is his soul.  Ooooohhhh, I got such a long way to go.

Lalida,
Sorry for the late response (too much work). What I mean is that the experience of time is by our mind, because it is the mind that engages with activity and interprets experiences. We experience time as sometimes slow and sometimes fast. But in the state of Moksa (first state of enlightenment; to use a word I used before in another blog), or when Clinging is gone (to use your word), there is a fundamental stillness at the very depth of our awareness that is free from activity and therefore free from time (time is not an issue anymore). Some people may argue that time exists independently of us. In Einstein’s relativity theory, time differs in relation to the strength of gravity, so time goes slower some places in the universe and faster in other places. So time is relative, and the only absolute is the speed of light. But I would still say that no matter where in the universe we are, time is still an interpretation of the mind.

To get the sense of what I am talking about, perhaps one needs to have had or have the experience of consciousness ceasing to engage, ceasing to be active, ceasing to be outwardly projected, ceasing to relentlessly by preoccupied with thoughts. It is like the ocean coming to a rest, no waves, no motion, just perfect stillness. The experience of time dissipates.
comment 29
Ian date : 29/02/2008 time : 21.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Talkfact, Science exists even if men did not, the laws of science are not made by men, just discovered by men. Technology is the application of these laws, if technology is used not for good but for bad it is not the fault of either science or technology but of men.
comment 28
talkfact date : 29/02/2008 time : 21.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Ian: Facts are even worse. You see Science has learned a trick. Itself it sticks to the more theoretical part, the pure part, above all evil on this earth. And then it persuades its far from innocent Assistant, Technology, to do the dirty work.
comment 27
talkfact date : 29/02/2008 time : 20.16
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Ian: you are a tricky fellow – and that’s a compliment! Having taken away the two blankets your covered the object spoken of with – I have this to say:
Science suffers entropy as it refuses to take in a whole lot of earthly knowledge (information).
Pure Science is a confession by the lip – it doesn’t exist in the real world.
comment 26
Ian date : 29/02/2008 time : 19.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Talkfact, I wonder why you use the subtitle spaewife and not the masculine form? I would imagine that as a Swede you know how to write it:-)
You philosophy seems to be your own variant of Wiccan with perhaps a touch of Gaian, is this correct?
I find some of your comments are contradictory, you on the one hand claim information does not suffer entropy, on the other hand you say Science does. Yet pure science is simply accumulated information.
comment 25
talkfact date : 29/02/2008 time : 18.37
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Ian: I think Science itself is under the pressure of Entropy. And more and more so. This due to the fact that Science, Big Science, has taken on a path of its own and left us earthly inhabitants behind. It has stopped listen to us, stopped taking in new and novel facts, stopped listening to what Earth itself has to say, stopped listening to what all living creatures have to say, stopped listening to the trees and to the plants.
Looking closer at the Science of Biology, the science which actually decides what a human being is, you notice it’s standing on the edge of the highest cliff above an unclear Sea meditating on a jump, pressured by Physics to join its robotic path. You cannot distinguish what’s in the Sea. If there are cliffs right under the surface you will kill yourself if you jump, or get a broken neck.
This is what they call Brinkmanship, I heard from an African diplomat.
comment 24
talkfact date : 29/02/2008 time : 18.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Hair: As much as I believe in the power from Earth I do believe in the power from the Sky also.
You touch a stone by the power from Earth; you find you can use it as a tool. Not long after you find you can put the stone into fire and shape it to even better tools. You find it glitters and you make pieces of that glitter into precious stones. You find you can use the stone to build houses and temples even. And that’s about it.

Compare this to what happens if you use the power from the Sky:
You touch a stone by the power from Sky and immediately it turns into many minerals, many metals, many precious stones, in fact the whole periodic table and along with it the present world technology.
You go further and many more things will come into being. One day, though, you shake your head and look down. You bend down to look for the hidden truth behind all this and suddenly you see and understand that many of those things that recently came into being, by the power from the Sky, were fakes, were ghosts without own life or power, were shades which made the earth a dark place.
This happened as the power from the Sky was permitted to rule with the mannerism of a dictator. The lack of balance in this state of affairs made the unbelievable believable and trustworthy.

This being said, the solution cannot be to reject this power of the Sky and in Marxist fashion making the opposite side come into power. That would be to rewind history and lead us back to Stone Age. How many of us would stand up for that? Very few I think.
Balance, should be the aim, not the opposite.
comment 23
Lalida date : 29/02/2008 time : 17.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Hair,

Need some clarification on this "mental interpretation of experience" meaing ? I don't quite get that...
comment 22
Hair date : 29/02/2008 time : 02.12
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/1432
Still is his mind -  Inclusive his heart - Compassionate his actions - And free is his soul.  Ooooohhhh, I got such a long way to go.

Time???? If I was going to say what it is in one word, I would say it is an “interpretation.” In two words, I would say a “mental interpretation.” In four words: “mental interpretation of experience.” It is as simple as that.
comment 21
Ian date : 28/02/2008 time : 21.58
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Pomjuk, you don't have to believe something in order to study and quote it. I can quote the Quran and the Rig Veda also:-)
comment 20
Lalida date : 28/02/2008 time : 20.49
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

TF,

Love to give you one but reading your comments drives me crazy already, you know what it's like when you have to translate that into Thai in your own brain.....
comment 19
talkfact date : 28/02/2008 time : 20.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

As one of my comments had 4 spelling mistakes, I reedited it and made corrections. This changed the order of some of the comments – in case you have been wondering…


Tao? Now and then I think an apple from an apple tree of Tao, and a mango from a mango tree of Tao, have been falling when I passed by and I picked it up and ate it. But I never tried to study Tao as such. Now, I’m doing it for a change.
I went to Gecko’s book shop here in Chiang Mai and bought a book on Eastern philosophy and a book on information theory.
Amazingly, what is said about Tao in the philosophy book is not all that far from what is said about DNA, the coding of our genes, in the book about information theory:
“One realm conserves the information and the other does the work. One kind, linear, like DNA, and a second kind three-dimensional, like the proteins.
The first kind doesn’t move – and this segregation keeps it away from daily life. The second kind can move, its structure can move between determinate positions and, in turn, set in motion other structures in determinate directions. The information itself, the abstract entity, is the same in either world at a given time; the same entity just appears in different dimensions…”
And now from the Eastern philosophy book: “According to Taoist philosophy, rest is prior to motion, and stillness is prior to action, therefore the Tao is the basic to everything. The Tao; although motionless in itself, offers the basis for all other movement. In this sense, the Tao is that which is absolutely neutral…”

So far, so good. What I want to say from now on and for a while cannot easily be put into a Westerner’s mouth. I don’t think it would work. This made me think of starting another blog, where a fortune teller, a woman from East Asia, perhaps 39 years old, who tells the world the truth – something very few fortune tellers are capable of. She shouldn’t be too young, as fortune telling is a demanding task
It seems as if is was pretty hard to start another blog though (with all data different).
Anyone who has a bright idea (?)
comment 18
GGrass date : 28/02/2008 time : 09.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

TalkFact: yeah... to meet time half way... I've learned that in letting go of the time, you get to control it... therefore, I don't wear watch...
comment 17
talkfact date : 28/02/2008 time : 09.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Lalida: “Existence” is a good word. The funny thing about time is, quoting a science book, “not of any use to speak of time before the Big Bang, as there is no ‘before’ because time (and space) did not exist.” Time, then, can come into existence or cease to exist just like that. This makes me wonder if time passes into that what science now call “information”..at times when it does not exist.
It exists now in the sense that you found only one material thing at one place a certain moment. In language grammar is the time which sees to that what we speak come out in some order. Perhaps the time of our universe is not that Big time we are thinking of when we discuss it. A Big time, quoting Lalida, “It's within itself, deep down within.”
Are we afraid of physical death, or are we afraid of “time-death”, of no longer being part of that “deep down within”?

Pomjuk: I think we have to distinguish between old and new Science. Old science talked about a Big Bang consisting only of energy and matter (and time and space). New science, after Information theory, talks about energy, matter and information. These give us a universe with ever increasing complexity, working on its own by self-organizing.

Ian: Entropy and Information are the opposites. By taking in ever more information the living systems hold up against entropy. So, there’s building up and there’s tearing down. And the building up part is taking place now, something we never heard of in old science. (New species come to existence now – at least among insects). In old science we were born with a certain number of brain cells and as the cells were damaged there was nothing to do. We know now that new brain cells are created all the time, all our life. (Well, this discovery, and the Stem cell research following suit, took place only a few years ago).
Buddhism is interesting as it takes us much further back in history than what Christianity does. The Bible starts, except for the story of Creation copied from Gilgamesh, with “In the beginning there was the word”. But long before humans could speak, they were using pictures, just like other living creatures, for communication. This should come out as: In the beginning there was the picture.
And before that: First there was the fish, then there were singing birds and many paws and, finally, there was the talking non-paw. No wonder, then, that Buddhism speaks of reincarnation. If we didn’t come from another planet, something a certain sect wants us to believe, we must have been through all that.

GGrass: Even the universe is speeding up, somehow copying the human experience, quoting from GGrass, “every year is getting shorter”
On the whole I think the dullest days or months might be the most important in our lives as far as creativity goes. The more bored you find yourself the more your Mind is forced investigate about yourself, what you are up to and what you should be up to, digging up great ideas, novel plans…, quoting from GGrass:
“Ticking way the moments that make up a dull day…Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town..”
Oho, I can spot him now. It’s not a BMW he’s driving. No, he’s steering a submarine and now it goes deep down, diving deeper into the Sea of Time. The submarine’s driver has learned his trick well – you aren’t supposed to focus on time as that would block your experience of it, you just drive on happily. How great isn’t it to meet time halfway instead of waiting for it to meet you.
comment 16
Pomjuk date : 28/02/2008 time : 00.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

Ian: I did not know that you believe in God, the book of Genesis Adam, Eve and all that. What a surprise!
comment 15
Pomjuk date : 28/02/2008 time : 00.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

Use the word "evidence" for most of the cases.
comment 14
Pomjuk date : 28/02/2008 time : 00.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

The new theory about the creation of the universe and all the matters is that “there are more than just one universes as we know it”. The parallel universes are parts of a super universe (for lack of a better word). The super universe is indefinite and consisted of parallel membranes. These membranes move independently and eventually touched. The snaps of the membranes create the big-bangs.

If the theory of parallel membranes is true, then there must be more than one universes. Our universe has been aged as about 13.7 billion light years and about 93 billion light years across. This universe is just one of many out there. Right now the theory is just a hypothesis proven by mathematical model without physical evident.

Human’s perception about the universe has been proven again and again to be too small. I’ll not be surprised if one day we have a hard evident that the universe is indefinite and a consisted of 12 dimensions.

For me right now the theory is just enjoyable reading material. I’ll just leave it to the smart people in the astrophysics and quantum physics fields to search for the fact. One day we will have a unified law of matters that will work in the quantum level as well as in a larger scale. When that happens; Einstein’s theory of relativity will be proven obsolete. Right now I just want more time to make more money, because the history of being poor is un-enjoyable. I am longing for the long future horizon to continue making money so I can buy more toys.
comment 13
Ian date : 27/02/2008 time : 16.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Talkfact, are you talking to the man or the scientist?
As a man I am fairly confident that I possess a spiritual component, a soul.
As a scientist I have to admit that whilst some smoke is noticeable I cannot find any evidence of a fire.
If souls exist then it is self evident that information is exempt from the laws of thermodynamics and hence entropy.
Adam's apple, (why Adam's, Eve picked it ). Is an analogy, the tree of life or the tree of knowledge.
If the soul exists it was a good choice, corporeal life is just a brief phase in our existence. So knowledge is much more useful.
It was nothing to do with talking, in Genesis it say that before Adam's fall from grace that God walked and talked with Adam in the garden of Eden.
Scientifically, speech predates modern hominids, Erectus, Argaster and Neanderthal all had speech. Many animals also have speech.
comment 12
talkfact date : 27/02/2008 time : 16.12
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jern
penfact 

Ian, ok, but that picking of that world famous apple in the Garden of Eden is about the hominid becoming the talking Man, right?

Your view of Information versus Entropy is a rather negative on, if you please.

Would you agree on the following?
It’s arbitrary if we conclude that Universe is spiritual or physical as both conclusions are equal, right?
comment 11
Ian date : 27/02/2008 time : 15.53
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Talkfact, first I would like to clear up a misunderstanding, the English version of Genesis says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God".
In fact in the original Greek the term "logos" is used, which means law. The expression "with God" should more correctly be expressed as synonymous with God. In other words God and the Law are different names and aspects for the same thing.

Now you say, "Entropy and Information are the opposites". If you know the children's game of "Chinese whispers" this is a good example of information decay.
Life in its anabolic phase is indeed a localised reversal of entropy, but entropy always wins and katabolism follows.
Energy, like water, flows from a high potential to a low potential, this is called an entropic flow, it cannot be avoided.
Information cannot exist without a physical medium other than in the form of modulations of the electromagnetic spectrum or gravitational fields, yet these fields can only be created by physical means.
If you can prove that information can exist without substance and hence free from entropy then you will have proved that the soul can exist:-)
comment 10
Lalida date : 26/02/2008 time : 15.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

TF,

If I may......This time you've mentioned is not something you can touch, see or reach from the universe, not something from the outside. It's within itself, deep down within. History, Physics, longing all within itself, without understanding "self" or "inner self" as the main core, then time are never reacheable or never did exist.
comment 9
Pomjuk date : 26/02/2008 time : 08.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

Time is relationship between objects and the space between them. Big-bang created substances and space. Before the BIG-bang there was no substance, no space and of course "no time". History is past and future is longing to be seen. Yet time is the most valuable ungraspable substance you can ever obtain. Is time travel possible? As Jerry would say, "There is nothing in Physics prevent us from traveling backward and forward thru time. Hopefully one day we will make "Back to the future" comes true.
comment 8
GGrass date : 26/02/2008 time : 08.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but its sinking
And racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in the relative way, but youre older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death

Every year is getting shorter, never seem to find the time
Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the english way
The time is gone, the song is over, thought Id something more to say

Home, home again
I like to be here when I can
And when I come home cold and tired
Its good to warm my bones beside the fire
Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells.

(Time by PF 'DSOTM')
comment 7
Ian date : 25/02/2008 time : 19.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Earlsy, essentially yes. Diamond owes its hardness to being a single molecule crystal of carbon, Carbon has 4 valency bonds (thing of them as hands), diamond is a cubical matrix of carbon atoms. However, this is not why they are valuable, it is their rarity, they can only form under extremely high temperatures and pressures such as are found in the Earth's mantle. So the only way they reach the surface is in volcanic shafts called "pipes". Edinburgh castle sits on one such:-)
But everything decays in time, either through chemical instability, internal radioactivity or cosmic radiation.
comment 6
Lalida date : 25/02/2008 time : 16.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

For now, give me a hint. Is it something like "Existance" or the theory of Buddhism "Cling"?
comment 5
Lalida date : 25/02/2008 time : 16.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

TF,

Very interesting Blog, I'm grinding it now. If I'm not wrong, you're a Tao believer..."Time" I heard this one before.....Hmmm , I'll get back to you, I'm sure Hair will be interested also.
comment 4
earlsy date : 25/02/2008 time : 16.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/secondtimearound

Ian, does that mean that everything, all matter, degrades over time? Even the hardest substances like diamonds? Is that what make diamonds so valuable, because they degrade slower?
comment 3
Ian date : 25/02/2008 time : 15.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Time is how we describe the transition from one physical state to another, it is the flow of entropy. Without change there is no time.
comment 2
GGrass date : 25/02/2008 time : 15.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

TalkFact: Ok... I gave it a try...

Sometimes when I'm driving in my car, I think about 'TIME'... what is it? what does it do?

But the more I think about it, the more confusing it gets. But once in awhile, I get a 'Eureka!' moment, and understand the question. But the understanding is only short lived... until I lower my head and feel the stiff neck.

I enjoyed reading your 3 pieces so far... I really hope there's more to come. :-)
comment 1
GGrass date : 25/02/2008 time : 15.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

TalkFact: I'm not sure what's gonna come out at the end of this comment, so I'll have to excuse myself first... OK? :-)

You see, TIME is pretty wierd thing... It's there, but it's not... You can't touch it, but you can feel it...

If there was no clock, would there be time?

If we didn't count the beatings of our heart, would we live any longer?

What IS time... What's its purpose, and what does it do?

I guess TIME is something like 'ether'. Before they used to think the universe is filled with a substance called Ether, because LIGHT would need some sort of medium to travel thru. So they made up this imaginary stuff called Ether, and tried to form some theories around it. It worked for awhile, but after some experiments which was designed to prove the existance of Ether, the Ether was proved to be non-existant. (I'm trying to recall my physics class... this is as close as it gets, coming from my brain...)

Any way, TIME is like that. It's a medium in which we exist... As much as a seed needs water and soil, it needs time to grow... As much as we need food and water to grow, we need time too... hell, everything needs time to propagate itself forward. Or backward, depending on how much beer you had. ;-)

Anyway, I believe TIME is something like a story book, in which all the events are recorded, from the beginning to the end. We happened to be looking at 'Year 2008' page of the book, and we'll only get to see the book until our bodies stop living.

Then, we add our story to the story book, and our story is our history. A complilation of history is TIME, therefore, we, in THIS life, are segments of TIME that is forever there, from the beginning, until the end...

(again, what the heck am I saying????)
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