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A Man's Random Walk
politik, economik, foreign affairs
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
Tuesday , September 16 , 2008
The Paradox of Thai "Democratic Citizens"
Posted by Ginola , Reader : 1155 , 13:02:33  
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I've been very busy these past couple of weeks because school term has started. I don't really have time to write a new blog but I would like to share a short essay I wrote back in November last year for class on Politics of Southeast Asia. What has happened in Thailand since then has further confirmed my thesis in the essay.

“I would say that nothing is worse than what Thaksin has done… Thaksin has already carried out what I would call a silent coup, because he called the country as a dictatorship by using money in a corrupt way… Nothing is worse than the Thaksin regime.” - Former Thai senator Chirmsak Pinthong, in response to the 2006 military coup

Non-electoral participation of mass and civil society groups is considered by many scholars of democratization as an essential force for fostering democratic progress. With this in mind, many observers of Thai politics might have observed in the 1990s that “the defeat of the coup junta, movement for constitutional reform, growing confidence of NGOs and assertiveness of the press were taken as evidence that Thai society had experienced… the development of ‘civil society’”. 

However, in 2006, the country witnessed yet another military coup  - an event that would bring us to the question of why “the trends that point to the positive shift in perception of power away from the traditional sources of power such as the monarch and the military to representatives of democratic institutions ” has failed to produce long-lasting democracy.

This paper explores and draws meaningful insights from political behavior of civil society groups in the series of political events leading to and in response to the 2006 military coup. This paper asserts that there were growing forces of civil society and increasing political participation of the urban upper- and middle-class in the immediate years prior to the coup. However, these forces fail to facilitate the course of democratic progress largely because many members of this politically active civil society do not adhere to the principles of popular democracy.  

Prinat Apirat emphasizes non-electoral participation as an important element in successful development of democracy and argues that “it requires civic participation to sustain the democratic process as well as constrain government activities. ” That is, the presence of “democratic citizens ” who actively participate in elections and non-election political activities is crucial to democracy.

In this respect, the pre-coup anti-Thaksin movements offered encouraging signs of progress. Many civil society groups, such as the academia, the press, the NGOs and professional associations, were consistently critical of the government on various grounds . Thaksin-related issues became hot topics of discussions among members of the general public and within the active online community .

Loosely organized associations representing people from diverse fields – doctors, architects, engineers, taxi drivers and many others – publicly expressed their protest against Thaksin. The People Alliance for Democracy (PAD) was formed in 2005 as a coalition of protesters and was very active in organizing large protest rallies in which prominent public figures as well as ordinary urban citizens participated. With these active non-electoral participations, Thai democratic progress looked promising.

The anti-Thaksin movement, concentrated in Bangkok, reflects high political awareness, active political participation and high demand for good governance among the urban middle-class . The anti-Thaksin movement also resembles the May 1992 demonstrations in the sense that both events could be portrayed as “the emergence of the middle class in leading the mass movement. ” These upper- and middle-class people are “free individuals released from patronage ties, the bureaucratic polity, and the tyrannies of tradition ” who formed a loosely structured network with the common goal of removing Thaksin. It should be noted that civic participation comprised pro-Thaksin movements as well.

If urban-based civil society groups and mass participation were so active in its criticisms of the government, why has the Thai society witnessed yet another military coup? Shouldn’t the growing civic forces be consolidating democracy? The answer to this question lies in the very characteristic of the urban upper- and middle-class “democratic citizens”: the lack of faith in popular democracy principles.

The claim that these “democratic citizens” do not always adhere to democratic principles is evident in many occasions. Turning back to 1991, many “democratic citizens” initially supported the coup against the notoriously corrupt Chatchai government. In 2006, after Thaksin had dissolved the parliament and called for a snap election to be held in April, the three main opposition parties announced that they would boycott the election.

Then, upon learning that Thaksin’s party had won more than 16 million votes in the April election, Chamlong Srimuang, a PAD leader, declared that the PAD would not accept the election results because Thaksin “has no legitimacy to rule” and that it would “go on rallying until Thaksin resigns and Thailand gets a royally-appointed prime minister. ” This movement for royal intervention started in March 2006 when a group of nearly 100 prominent citizens submitted a petition to the King, requesting for a royally appointed prime minister to ensure fair and free election. 

The idea of royal intervention was also supported by many civil society groups, including the PAD, the Press Council of Thailand, and the Democrat Party leader, all of whom saw royal intervention as the only way for Thailand to resolve its political crisis. Although the request failed to materialize as the King dismissed it as “undemocratic” and “irrational” , it suggested to the military elites that many of these “democratic citizens” were willing to accept undemocratic solution to the political problem. A coup might have been regarded as impossible before, but not any more.

As such, it was by no means surprising that the strongest evidence of the lack of faith in popular democracy among the urban “democratic citizens” was to be found in their response to the coup. Not all members of the anti-Thaksin forces welcomed the coup, but a large portion of them certainly did. The general public also seemed to accept the coup as a public opinion poll conducted one day after the coup showed that 84% of the respondents “agreed with” the coup and 75% believed that it would “improve Thai politics ”.

To many senators, professors, members of the press, politicians and others who backed the coup, any means, albeit an unconstitutional one, was justified as long as it could bring down Thaksin and his corrupt regime. To them, democratic elections do not matter if the outcome goes against what they would like it to be. After all, many of them claim that the millions of votes Thaksin has received in elections could be disregarded because these votes are considered to have been “bought”, either through outright vote-buying or populist policies.

All the above observations clearly illustrate the following paradox: the politically active, urban-based “democratic citizens” in Thailand do not adhere to popular democracy principles. While their enthusiastic criticisms of the government and strong demand for good governance are positive factors for democratic progress, their acceptance of unconstitutional means as a solution to political problems and their rejection of popular democracy hinder the development of a strong democracy.

Members of this kind of urban-based, higher-class-centric civil society are merely critical of their government and the way democracy functions; they do not believe in or practice democratic ideals. Thus, the growth of civil society per se is insufficient to develop and sustain democracy; the root and the attitudes of its members matter significantly as well.

As long as civil society development in Thailand is still dominated by the urban upper- and middle-class people who do not truly believe in democratic principles, a military coup against a democratically elected government will always remain a highly likely possibility.


Read comment

comment 39
AussieObserver date : 17/11/2008 time : 18.04
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/politics

actually, I think their are two tolics being debated...

1. whether the law itself is a fair law, in particular is the punishment of dissolution of a party a fair punishment

2. whether the law has been judged fairly

I think the dissolution of parties is obviously a disproportionate punishment, so that goes back to criticising the ones that created the law and, unless the judges unfairly exercised discretion, we cannot blame them

the other case is where the judges seems to have not administered the law correctly or, if discretion is allowed then unfairly

in the Samak Cooking case and the Thaksin Land case their are good reasons for believing that the judges over-ruled existing law to get their convictions

in the Samak payment for cooking case, the judges ruled that a "contractor" is an "employee"...
now I suspect many employers should be nervous because they want contractors not to be subject to the same labour laws as employees

in Thaksin case, the judges ruled that the FIDF is a government agency... whereas in 3 previous Supreme Court cases the FIDF has been ruled as NOT a government agency,
many public officers, including all MPs should now be nervous because it may be illegal for them to contract with any government or independent organisation for anything
comment 38
rad date : 28/09/2008 time : 10.26

ys-lai,
You are right, if all the other corrupt politicians and couping generals got away with their crimes, so should Samak and all of the new guys who follow. That will certainly end the problem.
comment 37
ys-lai date : 28/09/2008 time : 09.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad
Seems u selectively miss the point of debate. I rewrite in easier phrase :-

1). A suspect should get a FAIR repeat FAIR trial in the Court; with equal IMPORTANT A FAIR repeat “FAIR” judgment RELEVANT to offense committed (I repeat relevant). I raise a few cases, like Banned TNT party & Out of logic judgment on cooking show by Samak.

2). You also choose to ignore the facts presented: There are over 30 illegal military coups happened in Thailand. None of the military general ever prosecuted and obviously there is no Court hearing needless to say about punishment. This day light CRIME/robbery right in front of 60 millions Thais with width publicity in all media.

With full co-operation by well organized & financial funded gangs of mobs like PAD glorify an illegal crime like military coups and their illegal force entry into PM’s office & airports etc with hypocrisy of democratic protests????

Is my point CLEAR repeat clear to you NOW? Stay focus on the point repeat POINT of debate. There can be only two answers to my point of debate to choose as follows:-

1). Yes, it is a fair judgment by Thai Court.
2). No, it is unfair judgment that is not relevant to offense committed. (REPEAT RELEVANT)

Are you CLEAR now?????
comment 36
rad date : 27/09/2008 time : 17.53

ys-lai,
Somewhere I am broadly missing your point, I have not twisted anything that I can see, just presented the facts, I asked you if you could provide the penalty for the crime, you didn't, you know that Samak was aware of the crime ansd punishment, you also know that he choise to continue in violation of the law.

What else is there, other than your opinion that it was unfair?

You keep dancing around the real issue whuich is the guy did the crime knowing it was a crime.

There is no way to side step that fact. He was guilty, whinning about the sentence is normal but for what purpose?

If you want real fairness, the man should never been the PM, the people were robbed, it is they who were treated unfairly.
comment 35
ys-lai date : 27/09/2008 time : 17.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad,

Don’t twist and turn the issue.

I am talking about FAIRNESS. For yr information:- Burma’s Law also written by Military dictatorship to suppress the civilian uprising.

Please don’t insult the intelligent of Thai people with your absurd logic.
comment 34
rad date : 27/09/2008 time : 13.07

ys-lai,
It is not a fact, the lower sentence you seem to believe should have been given to Samak doesn't exist, or if it does, show it to me, please.

The penalty I saw was in the constitution and it was serious. Just like breaking up the parties, they are trying to send a message, don't lie, cheat, or steal.
comment 33
ys-lai date : 26/09/2008 time : 19.09
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad,

One wish to bend the TRUTH will twist himself into insanity!!!!!

You are side tracking with absurd explanation???

My debate is on prejustice judgment with too heavy punishment by Thai Court Judge.
As I mentioned key success of any democratic society are:-

1).FAIR law enforcement i.e. by police but in Thai’s case seems Military.
2). FAIR judgment according to degree of offence to be judged by Independent Court Judges.
3). No body is above the law.

Seems Military is above the law; no general ever get procecuted for over 30 illegal military coup??? Seems Military coup is lawful and NORM in Thailand????
Absurd Judgment by judge is prejustice and unfair on a few cases I raised. That’s the fact.

Present Thai’s Law enforcement is marginally better than Burma (the law of absolute dictatorship).
comment 32
rad date : 26/09/2008 time : 09.18

ys-lai,
"This is perhaps the most absurd logic in relationship of justification of Law I ever heard in my life."

No where was I tryng to justify the law, just pointing out how stupid it was to break a law that carried known serious consequences.

Knowing the consequences and committing the crime anyway are what usually determine the difference between criminals and honest people.

Again, it is to late to complain of the penalty when you have already committed the crime.
comment 31
ys-lai date : 25/09/2008 time : 14.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

quote
Rad wrote
The law says that if executives of a political party are found guilty of voter fraud the party can be disbanded. The executives knew or should have known that they were committing a crime that could wipe out they party, but they committed the crime anyway.
unquote

This is perhaps the most absurd logic in relationship of justification of Law I ever heard in my life.
Nixon in USA was impeached for eardropping in opposite party. The US court don’t disbanded the whole Democratic party but only the responsible president is guilty. Period. I never heard of any law to banned the entire party itself in any democratic society of course except dictatorship country. Party don’t belong to one person. The leader of a party merely is a elected leaders and not owners of the party.

Since 1932, there are more than 30 illegal military coups in Thailand; none of military generals was punished. To mockery of Thai logic system, all of military generals and civilian PM were officially appointed by the King. Who is at fault, then????

Humanity in Thailand seems reverts back to stone age mentality triggle by PAD….
comment 30
GGrass date : 25/09/2008 time : 10.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

I see...
comment 29
rad date : 24/09/2008 time : 09.20

ys-lai,
Crimes usually have prescribed punishments, rob a bank and spend 10 years in prison, as an example. The judge can't sentence the robber to pay a 50 baht fine. Samak, like the the bank robber, knew or should have known that there was a penalty to be paid for his actions, he took his chances.

The law says that if executives of a political party are found guilty of voter fraud the party can be disbanded. The executives knew or should have known that they were committing a crime that could wipe out they party, but they committed the crime anyway.

I would say they were stupid, they probably think they were being clever.

If you know someone is out to get you, you don't provide them with the opportunity to do so if you can possibilty avoid it.

Complaining about the punishment after you commit the crime is a difficult defense to make.
comment 28
ys-lai date : 21/09/2008 time : 14.16
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad,

You call this FAIR judgment???? Nobody debate with you on punishment on offense. But degree of punishment must relevant to crime.

Banning the TNT party for election is also FAIR judgment ??? Pls answer this question????

In that case, I assume you will support the Sodomy charges against Anwar in Malaysia is a FAIR trial – ten years ago. Now Malaysia also wanted to file the same charges against Anwar for same charges.

It is a shocking experience for me to realize such narrow minded view of so called elite class in Bangkok. I have nothing more to say. You guy are digging your own grave yard. Vietnam will overtake Thailand in no time. I will advise all my clients to stay out of Thailand; Vietnam is safer place to conduct business and avoiding the terrorist mob from Bangkok elite.
comment 27
rad date : 20/09/2008 time : 22.21

ys-lai,
The court didn't disqualify him for hosting a cooking show. The court disqualified him because he broke the law, hosting the cooking show created a conflict of interest. He held a job when the rules say he can't. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Basic law.
comment 26
ys-lai date : 20/09/2008 time : 13.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad,

Seems you don’t understand even basis meaning of LAW.

Court ruling disqualifies Samak to be PM due to cooking show. This is punishment – are you clear of the judgment???? This judgment interpret as Court veto him out of office instead of punish his of what he is doing on cooking show. This is contradiction. Such judgment itself is a ransom to parliament itself. Whether coalition wanted to impeach PM and opt his out of office with extraordinary meeting by voting is another issue all together. One can’t mix the two issues together as one. Such act itself reflecting Lawless in Thai justice system itself.

Similar is court judgment of disqualify elected PM Thaksin and all it 100 over elected members from parliament and banned them from election for 5 years itself are political assassination.

Even more ridiculous is banning the TNT party consisting of hundred of thousands if not millions members. What sort of judgment is this????

Example Siam company a Public listed company with 1,000 shareholders – Only the specific person like president and 3 directors performed certain illegal act. If Court make similar judgment as per above incident. The innocent 996 shareholders also suffered loss and company forced to close down. 996 shareholders also not allowed elect among their member to run the company simply appointed senior management is guilty???? Are you saying such type of judgment is logic and fair?

If all Thais thinking this way???? There is no hope….. I rest my case here.
comment 25
rad date : 20/09/2008 time : 12.06

ys-lai,
All of what you write may be good but the question is how do you get there?

I am not sure what you idea of the rule of law is so it is difficult to comment.

If the punishment for smoking in public is being removed from office then how can a court fine the smoker 50 baht? Or why would one smoke in public knowing that?

The the exPM could have been back to work in 3 days, so the punishment was not as serious as it could have been,banned from politics for 5 years.

But the coalition failed to give him that vote of confidence and he is out of a job.

We can argue about the decision forever, but it was constitutional and it solved a problem that the exPM couldn't or wouldn't. Now the country has an opportunity to move forward.
comment 24
ys_lai date : 20/09/2008 time : 10.24

There is no quick fix. As I write earlier democratic only work when LAW is fair. No body is ABOVE law.

1). Law enforcing body like military commander is not above the law. Any good citizen can sue the commander in Court. Military should not have any special right for immunity from Public court.

Military coup strictly prohibited. Military duty is for defense against foreign invasion. Internal civilian security is the duty of Police. Military should stay out.

2). Judgment on punishment against offender must be FAIR; there should be minimum and maximum fine or sentence for each type of offense regardless whether is politician or commoner.

Ridiculous sentence: a minor offense of cooking show by Samak enough to sentence him out of office.

This is clearly showed Unfairness of Justice system still exists in Thailand court. Due to strong political motive behind the scene.

Example if New PM smoking in Public place and get caught. It is an offense to smoke in Public place. Would Court sentence the next PM out of office due to smoking???? Instead to fine him let said USD50 for this kind of minor offense????

LAW must be fair to everybody; and not using LAW to prosecute somebody as revenge against political opponent as showed.
comment 23
Ian date : 20/09/2008 time : 09.00
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, I quote your quote, "there is no other country that is in the same position as Thailand. "
This is exactly the problem.
As an average income retired Farang I can have no influence on events, I may have an opinion even a strong opinion, but even King Canute could not hold back the tide, and I am not even a Canute. Many Thais seem to think that their King will do what Canute failed to do, you cannot debate with this sort of illogic.
comment 22
rad date : 19/09/2008 time : 18.29

Ian,
Were we Thai, that would be the worst mistake we could make. Where their government goes is of the utmost importance. Yet they, like you are tired of hearing of it, they will now settle for almost anything that will allow them to return to any sense of normalcy.

The chance of that happening are slim to none.

I listened to a business analysist yesterday and he described the three elements that future investors will be looking at in Thailand, the goverment, the monarcy and the economy. He went on to say that the business community and the government were so close as to be unable to separate the two. He closed with, there is no other country that is in the same position as Thailand.
comment 21
Ian date : 19/09/2008 time : 16.26
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, to be honest I am getting bored with this entire mess, both the Thai people and fellow bloggers have become so polarised and so entrenched in their views that any sensible discussion seems impossible.
comment 20
rad date : 19/09/2008 time : 12.21

ys-lai,
Couldn't agree more, sounds like you are describing a parent child relationship.

The government should be in charge and are not, so where is the democracy? The government is the only party that has a chance of fixing it, they have the people behind them, but so far the government has been as bad as the others. Greed for money and power keep getting in the way.

So now how do you fix it?
comment 19
ys-lai date : 19/09/2008 time : 10.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad,

Put personal view aside, let’s focus on topic on democratic system. Agreed, vote by people only beginning. Perhaps following steps is to heal the disease of very strange Power structure of Thailand for past 60 years after Monarchy lose his absolute power to rule Thailand.

The most urgent & important issues are 1). Law enforcement officiers 2). Fair judgement by Court itself:-

1). Law enforcing: military supreme command is Law enforcing body. Military command seems to be ABOVE the law????? There can no prosecution for any military coup and misdeed by the army personal except the internal Military Court marshal.

2). Military seems also can disobey President’s order and or Court order at will. Will no Law investigation for any misdeed for non-action. Example parliament enquiry or impeachment on any offended military officer instead of internal military court likely with prejustice stance.

3). Military coups - from any countries in the world consider as illegal act/rebellion by force. Thailand perhaps have about 30 military coups in 60 years. The duty of Military supposed to be defense the nation against foreign invasion.period. Internal security is responsibilities of Police however, Thai somehow twisted this fact and consider as NORM????

Did military coup get the written Court order for law enforcing purpose????
I don’t think so.
If not, this is crystal clear of abuse of POWER by Military General…period.

Did military get the written order from the King before action???
I don’t think so either.

2nd important issue:-
Is there a FAIR judgment in Court especially relating to politician????

Take example of recent court judgment Samak’s cooking show and verdict is he is commit an offense and punishment: disqualify to be a PM.

No argument about the offense no matter how small it is. Still must punish under law.
The degree of punishment is FAR FAR too great…..
It is a FAIR punishment????

No debate on offense but degree of punishment is very doubtful????

Without clearing above two problems any elected government is ruling with HANDCUFF on his hands.

Don’t join any politic party; joined the military and hopeful became the chief commander to rule Thailand. Perhaps this is sad karma for Thailand……

No body at top seems to respect the law in Thailand except ordinary good citizen without power and now even the VOTING POWER by the people will be taken away – if according to wishful agenda of PAD???

No dictator will protect ordinary people except himself. You are not electing a “SAINT”; you are electing an administrator to protect your vested interest. What’s the vested interest of ordinary citizen also are their money, safety and their basis human right to be respected no matter how poor or rich you are.

Security guard should stay out of politic scene completely. Since their duty is to enforce law under Court order. These are the POWER most easily get corrupted by nature of their supreme power with GUN on their hand.

That’s the only point I wish to ADMONISH……innocent of Thai people.
comment 18
rad date : 18/09/2008 time : 18.26

ys-lai,
"Are you still unconditionally support the PAD protestors sitting at PM office demanding dictatorship after losing a fair election in 2007 conducting by Military elite ?????"

That is a great question, so let me ask you, are still beating your girl/boyfriend/wife?

Getting the peoples vote is the beginning of a democractic government, PPP did that. But, doing their elected job is the next step, they didn't do that. No matter what you say that will not change, that is also a reality. You can beat PAD forever and Samak's government failed to carry out their mandate. I'll help you beat PAD, but it will not change the government's failure.

Criminal and evil because no rich person so far has either faced the charges or gone to jail if convicted, they all flee the country. That would be elites on all sides.
comment 17
ys-lai date : 18/09/2008 time : 16.50
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad,
It is problem when one demonized the opponent party. I don’t label anybody or assumpt he is this or that; if you notice my argument always end with a question mark??? It is you using word like criminal or evil something like that. Many PAD supporters have such strong hatred to consolidate their unity against other. Typical example is USA demonized Osama as evil, terrorist etc. Wanted to eliminate him by hook or by crook. Without looking at root of the problem ???? Osama is global hero of many Muslim; even the silent majority Muslim may not agreed of his act but they don’t hate him at all.

Think about it??? Why???

Osama able to win the heart of suppressed Muslim; one of main reason is Jew by force occupied present Israel at expense of their Muslim brothers -Palestine with full support from US for decades is the root problem. This is definite injustice to Palestine. Osama able to capitalize on this hatred culture and arose all Muslim to turn against their “enemies”? Such terrorist act also effect southern Thailand and even Bali in Indonesia. Now it is wide spread whether Osama exist or not don’t matter anymore. Motion trigger the evolution of hatred against all non-Muslim is created. Any one Muslim claimed he is followers of Osama also will received the die hard support of many fundamental Muslim and silent consent of many moderate Muslim. This is fact of life; it is their vested interest of their own kind.

I am not debating basic on moral right or wrong; but the reality of world event. Thaksin have arose the grassroots support due to his past policy. Now anyone claim to be followers of Thaksin policy will still gain vote from rural Thai; of course with blessing of Thaksin , then this guy will stand a better chance. That’s it. Example Samak the chef……..

PAD and military is not stupid either. They realized such reality; hence resolved to dictatorship ruling as their final goal. If they continued such tactic instead of trying to win the heart from rural people to heal the wound.

You think it is possible to solve this problem by another military coup and forced all PPP members out of the parliament. Rewrite the constitution again in favor of dictator ruling.
If uprising from rural country military suppression by force to settle this issue. Is that what Thai people wanted???? Do Bangkok normal good citizen wanted this????

Perhaps only a few power eagered elite in PAD party and of course military elite group have such wishful thinking to grasp control of Thailand. That’s is why I call PAD ransom the country again and again.

You may disagreed; that yr problem not mine. The motive of PAD is cystral clear by NOW.
comment 16
rad date : 18/09/2008 time : 14.13

Ian,
Two factions fighting over control of the country creating an unstable social and financial environment, two other factions are sitting on the sidelines waiting for the scraps is what I see.

Three of the four have legal power. The government is the only elected one. The job of managing the country is the governments, they have so far failed.

They are currently regrouping for a second try.

PAD are dissidents, there are legal remedies for dealing with them, three out of the four have declined to exercise their powers, so PAD continues to exist.

PAD is just one of problems facing the country. The previous government handled all of the problems the same way, poorly.

ys-lai,
Again, you get stuck in either or land. Just because I beat the government doesn't make me a PAD supporter. If Dr T isn't relevent, then why the phone calls back and forth to London?

Are you saying he isn't contributing funds to PPP and that he is not involved in their politics?
comment 15
Ian date : 17/09/2008 time : 20.29
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

All this bloody arguing in these blogs while Rome burns seems to be representative of Thailand. Everyone blaming everyone else, and nothing is getting done. Even more puzzling is the number of bloggers taking the high ground, on both sides, who seem totally unaware of the real struggle going on.
I can understand Thais not understanding, but foreigners have access to a free press and unobstructed internet are they really this naive?
comment 14
ys-lai date : 17/09/2008 time : 18.49
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Rad,
Power corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely. This is Law of Nature. To prevent absolute power. The Democratic election by all citizen is the best solution and proven successfully in numeral nations including many Asian nations as well.
There is NO Paradox for democratic. But one chooses for benting the truth to fit his own wishful thinking. Once the truth is twisted; one need more twisted facts to support until beyond recognition.
Originally perhaps PAD really out of good intention for Good cause in 2006. But NOW???
Are you still unconditionally support the PAD protestors sitting at PM office demanding dictatorship after losing a fair election in 2007 conducting by Military elite ?????
You don’t feels embarrassed by defending the call for dictatorship by PAD?????
The rest of your debate about credibility of Thaksin is irrelavant to this 2007 election. Are you going to accuse all present elected members as criminals as well???? Even some of them is relative to Thaksin, so what?? Is it a crime to be related to Thaksin???? What’s type of logic PAD is insisting??? I really wonder????
Since PAD & Bangkok elite participate in 2007 election and hoping to win; but lose….. one must accept the election result as any good citizen. After losing - Why resolves to force entry into PM office and sit in protest despite Court order is issued to evict PAD from the Government office????Yet PAD choose to disobey the court order????
This is correct manner and attitude of PAD members???? How could Thai people trust them if they rule the country with such bad example. Especially is not by election but dictatorship of ruling they are now aiming for……
“By example shall we lead “ is the Golden rule. Sorry I don’t see any from PAD so far.
Contrary Samak is a good sportsmanship to step down under Court order. May I know yr comment who is more credible in particular incident alone????
comment 13
rad date : 17/09/2008 time : 16.11

ys-lai,
Beat any drum you wish the current government is/was a failure. Blame anyone you wish, but it was the elected who failed, not the self appointed.

All of your ranting and raving will not change their failure, they were not capable of running the government in these troubled times.

You seem to be blinded by your love for Dr T and your hate for PAD, this might be what is preventing you from seeing that there are faults on both sides, and that neither has Thailand in their heart, just their wallet.
comment 12
ys-lai date : 17/09/2008 time : 13.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Ginola given figure of 16 millions vote cast for Thaksin’s party before he and TNT toppled by Military coup. Total about 50 millions outside Bangkok (if you have problem with this). Despite odd and disadvantage, newly formed PPP won majority vote from rural area in 2007.
That’s the bitter facts, PAD & Military elite hard to swallow. …….
The SILENT majority of people in rural area didn’t agreed what PAD wish to paint by showing their vote repeatedly to TNT or PPP is BEST evidence to reflect the truth.
Minority group in Bangkok wish to rule Thailand by FORCE through dictatorship. That’s the fact and their true intention.
The rest I agreed is BULL shit good for recycle in rural farm land. Perhaps PAD wish to eat it instead to give free to the FARMER????? That’s I agreed they have such human right to refuse……
comment 11
rad date : 17/09/2008 time : 10.31

Ginola,
Your last paragraph in c 8 sums up the entire situation.

If someone somewhere can be found to mediate the factions through the crisis, maybe we will be able to look back at this as a growing point.

If there are 50 million farmers in the country the population must be at least 100 million.

The last census stuff I read said that about half of the population was in the rural areas and half in urban areas, with the divide getting larger as people move to the cities to earn money to send home.
comment 10
GGrass date : 17/09/2008 time : 09.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

I thought someone believed in the 'Karma System', thus would be pretty much at ease with all this political bullshit... obviously he is only a novice 'Buddist way practitioner' or whatever.
comment 9
ys-lai date : 17/09/2008 time : 07.49
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Ginola,
Your data base on City of Bangkok; reflecting the opinion at best 10 millions of Thai ignoring 50 millions rual Thai citizen.
1). Military elite appointed by the Royal King represent only Royal family of Thailand.
2). PAD & Bangkok elite depending on popular support from Bangkok city with 10 millions people as their power base.
3). Thaksin’s camp TNT & today PPP depending on popular support from rural countryside with 50 millions people.
Bangkok is part of Thailand but not the whole of Thailand. New York City is part of America but not whole of America; similar Tokyo city is part of Japan only.
A New Yorker winning the popular support & vote from New York City alone; only qualifies to serve as Mayor of New York. If he wanted to be president of America; he needs grassroots support from the whole of America. Same logic applies to Thailand.
Why PAD able to gain the heart of Bangkok citizen but failed to win the heart of rural citizen??? Instead of analyze the failure. PAD & Bangkok elite conveniently blamed the Thaksin and his representatives.
PAD & Military elite NAIVELY thinking by eliminate Thaksin everything will be solved. In reality there will be 50 millions potential candidates to replace Thaksin from rural area as long as they represented the interest and popular demand from rural countryside.
Look the history of world today; natural selection process is to eliminate dictator since they are cancer cell in the body of a nation. Only remains are Burma, North Korea and some nations in middle east. Dying cancer cell struggling for their remaining lifespan. PAD & Bangkok elite fall into this dying bleed stuggling for yr final date. Natural selection is the best Judge for such event finally.
The final result is obvious unfortunately PAD & BKK elite still in stage of denial and refuse to face the reality of the world continually dreaming in their Ivory Towers.
comment 8
Ginola date : 17/09/2008 time : 00.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
ginola

Pomjuk, ct 1,7: I agree with you. I think "democracy" has no clear-cut definition but there are "elements" in any society that suggest to you how "democratic" it is. I would like to write a blog on these "elements" some day...

ys-lai ct 5: I don't really understand your comment, and I don't think you understand what I wrote neither.

rad, ct 2: that's certainly true. thr problem with Thailand is that the government is plagued with failed policies and corrupt behaviors with little vision to bring the country forward. But I think there are democratic ways in which we the people can deal with this problem. Peaceful protest is one way to do it but seizing the govt house certainly is not, just like many other bloggers including Felix have said.

Many of the PAD people are "democratic citizens" - those who demand good governance from their government and participate actively in politics in-between elections - but they themselves do not uphold fundamental demoratic values. That's the problem with Thailand right now - bad adn incompetent government plus "undemocratic rule of mob". And of course, not to mention the elites behind the scene pulling the strings...
comment 7
Pomjuk date : 16/09/2008 time : 19.22
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

c4 Dalmasian: I refer to everyone who uses the name of democracy in vain. It’s naïve to believe that there is an angle in the Thai politics. They’re a bunch of crooks trying to gain the upper hand; especially the illegitimate PAD and the self proclaim democrat party. It’s naïve to even select a side, other than adhere to the democratic principle case by case.

It’s a top priority for the politicians to clean up the house and police themselves. They must make all political donation public records, otherwise will never have democracy.
comment 6
ys-lai date : 16/09/2008 time : 19.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ys-lai

Ginola
[quote]
Thaksin’s party had won more than 16 million votes in the April election, Chamlong Srimuang, a PAD leader, declared that the PAD would not accept the election
[/unqote]
Perhaps you dilibrately omit after Military coup. PPP link to Thaksin also majority elected despite under strong interference from Military elite by banning TNT & 100 over previous elected leaders to participate.
[quote]
Ginola wrote
The general public also seemed to accept the coup as a public opinion poll conducted one day after the coup showed that 84% of the respondents “agreed with” the coup and 75% believed that it would “improve Thai politics ”.
[/unquote]
Yr general public survey in Bangkok conveniently omitting 50 millions farmers in rural area??? PAD consider this 50 millions farmers too “low class” to join their Golf Club only for rich with heavy member fee as entry point. Before vote is allowed for farmers?????
Come on, PPP won again in 2007 with a face of Thaksin. Who are you to fool other except yourselves and elite group living in Ivory tower.
PAD received popular vote from Upper and middle class; and consider as NORMAL and birth right to rule. But completely reject popular vote by 50 millions rural area due to same popular policy???
Hopocrisy !!!!!
There is zero consideration of what rural area want from BKK elite group???No wonder your guy have zero support from the grass root.
What do your guy applied for Independent state of Bangkok to protect your vested interest. Kick all farmers out of your state and let them die at their own karma and became separate states. If you guy think the so called “low class” farmers is burden to society.
Or better learn from POT POT of Cambodia sentence all the farmers to death sentence. They don’t deserve to live due to the poorness and no right to vote as well due to their stupidity. Thai farmers deserve to die and farmers daughter to serve your fat BKK elite as whores in massage palour.
What are you trying to preach a new version of “A emperor new cloth” from western tale ???? only the wise intellect PAD and Bangkok elite can see such HEAVENLY cloth.
Sorry guy! 50 millions Thai farmers can’t see anything…….. we can see only a FAT naked body. Period…… pls try another trick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+ 50 millions more................
comment 5
FelixQui date : 16/09/2008 time : 18.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/FelixQui

And the anti-democracy criminals besieging government house are costing the Thai tax payers, which cost will be exacerbated by today's decision to spend another 8,000,000 Baht to make a temporary seat of government in the airport; not to mention how silly this makes Thailand look - a nation held hostage by a small mob of hooligans and scoundrels who manifestly care nothing for their country or their fellow citizens.
Those middle class, selfishly educated, pro-status quo, pro-dictators of the PAD should have been dealt with by the police, who have been seriously derelict in performing their duties: it is acceptable and proper to use appropriate force against criminals, which is all the PAD mob is these days. Well, perhaps that's not all they are: as Ginola and Pomjuk rightly note, they are also the willing agents of dictatorship in their fight to continue the suppression and control of the majority of Thai citizens for the selfish benefit of a small elite in Bangkok.
Were teh PAD remotely sincere in their empty pretence to "democracy" they would be working to improve the Thai constitution and system of checks and balances to make it work better in Thailand; they would not be engaging in criminal behaviour and seeking to force their self-serving minority views on the entire country, nor would they be resorting to such acts as the abuse of lese majeste laws to silence public discussion and criticism of their own undemocratic aspirations, and they would be acting in accord with the law.

It's a very sad comment on any group that it can make a government such as the PPP, even one led by Samak, actually look good by comparison. That has been a most impressive achievement by the PAD. No one else has come close to making the awful PPP led government look good!
comment 4
Dalmasian date : 16/09/2008 time : 17.37
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/dalmasian

Thank you, Pomjuk, for your wise remarks. They are the best I have seen so far from you.

You must be referring to those crooks and hoodlums of the PPP and the pro-Thugsin crowd who all claim that they must protect "democracy" when they are, in fact, the very people who do not practice and who despise true democracy to the core.

Thank you again for your excellent insight into this sensitive subject. I just hope the hypocrites in the weblog take notice of your fine remarks!



-- Dalmasian
comment 3
GGrass date : 16/09/2008 time : 16.07
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

Good one.
comment 2
rad date : 16/09/2008 time : 14.53

Ginola,
Very interesting paper.
I do think there is another element involved here; when a government is faced with the level of opposition the 2005/6 one encountered, their failure to address the issues brought forth by the group was tandamount to throwing gasoline on the fire.

The governments inability to deal with the problems that it was presented with indicated that a change in government might have been in order, the change could have been as simple as changing a policy, no necessarily disbanding and a reelection.

Failure to compromise on legitimate issues leaves those affected by the issues few choices.

That same scenario is being repeated now.
comment 1
Pomjuk date : 16/09/2008 time : 14.31
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

And over that PAD are purposing 70/30 per cent appointed to elected senators. That makes me wonder if the “D” in PAD stands for Democracy or Dictatorship.

The behaviors of the democrat party’s leaders during the coup debating the imposed constitution and after the coup make me feel that people are using the word “DEMOCRACY” in vain. No one really adheres to the democratic principle but everyone is saying that they are doing it to support the democracy, even the ones who obviously destroying the democratic principle.
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