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A Man's Random Walk
politik, economik, foreign affairs
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
Saturday , July 19 , 2008
The Downsides of the Democrats: A Perspective of my Southern Relative
Posted by Ginola , Reader : 990 , 19:08:29  
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Last month, I spent a few days visiting my relatives in Songkhla. Most of my family relatives live there and I stayed with my uncle’s family this time.

Among other things, we discussed politics. The time I was there coincided with the censure debate and we spent some time watching it.

To my surprise, I discovered that my uncle’s family – despite all of them having Southern origin – is anti-Democrat and pro-Thaksin. I was eager to find out why.

My uncle told me he once dreamed of being an elected Democrat MP. He used to go to Democrat rallies and activities when he was young. But now, having witnessed decades of Democrat involvement in the south, he has changed his mind.

“Democrats are toh lae”, he said. The Thai word toh lae (µÍáËÅ) is too difficult for me to translate it into English. In this context, it is best interpreted as: “Democrats criticize their fellow politicians (like Thaksin and Co) but whatever they’re saying actually applies to their own behavior too.”

My uncle would go on and elaborate on his comment:

“Democrats talk about Thaksin being corrupt and helping his own friends and crony. They talk about this as if they themselves are not corrupt and not helping their own crony!”

He then quickly cited incidents in the past in which the Democrats were involved in corruption cases. People like Suthep and Banyat are far from being free of corruption. The famous one is of course Suthep’s involvement in the land scandal (Sor Por Kor) in which he distributed hundreds of title deeds to wealthy businessmen instead of farmers. And this was just one of the many corruption cases that the Democrats were involved with.

“And Suthep, a godfather (jao poh) in his own province, is still there today, holding the position of Secretary-General of the Democrat Party. If the Party is so ideological and so godly, why would it let Suthep be there? The answer is simple: Suthep is a big ‘finance’ guy for the party.”

Now, on vote-buying:

“The Democrats always say Thaksin wins because of his money, because of vote-buying. People in the North and Northeast elect Thaksin because they get money. The Democrats are saying all this as if the Democrats are not involved in money politics! As if they don’t buy votes here in the south!”

He then went on to talk about his own and his friends’ experiences that show how the Democrats use money to buy votes. Some cases are straight vote-buying, but most are done through local network of “vote banks” (hua kanan). Money is given to influential figures in the localities – from local bureaucrats and local politicians to school teachers – who then influence others to vote for the Democrats.

He then told a story about one evening when he was at a Democrat rally some years ago. Chuan, a famous figure among most southern people, was speaking on the stage and my uncle told me he said this:

“Isan people’s vote can be bought with 10 baht. The vote of us – the southern people – can never be bought!” (I don’t think anyone records this speech and so I urge the readers to use your own judgment whether to believe it).

Behind the stage, however, my uncle observed the Democrat staff giving bank notes to their local network. Right there.

“Chuan himself might be clean, but he’s aware of all of his party’s wrong-doings and chooses to ignore them because he himself benefits from it too. Can you say this guy is honest and saintly? I don’t think so. The same thing applies to Abhisit.”

“And the democrat cronies are everywhere in the south! People with personal connection with Democrat MPs get better treatment and better projects. Yet the Democrats pretend to be blind on this when they talk about Thaksin’s cronies.”

Then, he said:

“The Democrats always say their party is founded upon an ideology and belief in democratic principles. Yet, if you look deeply, you don’t see any ideology in the Democrats! They seem to cherish their democratic principles only when it is in their own interest to do so. Otherwise, democratic principles are nothing to them.”

The evidence supports his claim. Just look at the last coup…

“What have the Democrats done for the Thai people? The Isan people have long been ignored by many Democrat governments. So, now that they are looked after by Thaksin’s policies, the Democrats came out and said ‘hey! That’s populist policies. That’s bad!’ This is partly true but it certainly is better than being ignored by the Democrats.”

That’s why some have nicknamed the Democrats as NATO – No Action, Talk Only.

He also mentioned about the Democrat powerful (and scary) influence in his hometown, Surat Thani.

“The other day I went to see my mom, who is 90 years old, in my hometown. When I started criticizing the Democrats and praising Thaksin, she shut me up. She said she’s afraid someone in the village would hear it and bas consequences could follow. In my village, people were told and almost threatened to vote for the Democrats.”

He then talks about Thaksin:

“Thaksin is much better. He gets the job done, effectively. He came to Songkhla one day and asked what was needed to be done to make life better here. People told him they needed new improved roads. So he directed the budget to improve the road linking Songkhla and Hatyai from 2 lanes to 6 lanes. This has made my quality of life much better than before as we don’t have to drive in a narrow road with all those trucks any more. The Democrats have been here for a long time but never really do anything.”

So much so about my uncle’s anti-Democrat perspective.

I think what I want this blog to convey is not to say that Thaksin is better than the Democrats. We all are aware of Thaksin’s wrongdoings. Sometimes, we are too obsessed with one man’s crime that we forget about other equally serious problems.

Many say Thaksin is “evil”. If so, I think many of the Democrats aren’t any better either.

If you say Isan people’s votes are bought, so do those of southern people. And for many southern people who don’t vote for the Democrats because of money, they do so because their parents vote for the Party, or because they are socially connected with the Party, or because they like Chuan, or because they are told by their superiors to “follow the crowd”. Is this picture anything better than the situation in the Isan?

I think the reality is that Thaksin would have won in Isan without spending much money to buy votes, just as the Democrats would have won in the south without doing so. Isan people love Thaksin for the benefits they get from his policies; southern people love the Democrats because they don’t really have a choice – the social and political structure there has been so much influenced by the Democrats.

With the alternative party choice – the Democrats – having a history full of ineffective policy-making and corruption, I am not surprised to see so many people voting for TRT and PPP.

If we were to see any real improvements in Thai politics, the Democrat Party NEEDS to go through some serious reform. Suppose Thaksin and his crony were to vanishe today, Thai politics will still remain plagued with corrupt and evil politicians and it’s no good for the Thai people.

This is a serious problem. Thaksin’s wrongdoings need to be taken care of, but so too the Democrats’.


Read comment

comment 28
expresso date : 25/07/2008 time : 03.03
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

Should you be a Thai politician?

In my opinion? Hell no, not in Thailand!

Try your luck in America, Ginola!
comment 27
expresso date : 25/07/2008 time : 02.59
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

Ginola, re your c14: "Some see logic in this blog, others like you don't."

What were you talking about?

What logic?

You reported a case of your relative. Do you expect us to perceive your relatives as representatives of the people there?

Then, what the hell was your purpose beside telling us that all politicians are dirty!

What the hell did you bring us anything new except bring out more divisiveness? Can you tell me? Sure, I reckon you are American, Thai, and Chinese all at once but what did you say in this blog of yours?

Me, no logic? You seem one who likes to write. That's about what you look to me!
comment 26
wch date : 24/07/2008 time : 09.28

Patchabun ?
Gen. Kajon Prasat, ex-sectrary general of the democrat, He was sentenced of corruption and was expelled from the democrat and now become an bench warmer in Chat Chai gangs.

Being a democrat in this kingdom, he she must be ready for hunger. All wives must be ready to become personal secretaries to their husbands, never show up in the public, they must be ready to sell the fried banana in street.
Look at the wives of Chuan's and now Abhisit's.
They never show up in public but hide deeply but diligently make news scrapping, fix TV, install ASTV, PTV and make notes for evening brainstormings with exhausted husbands,,,,,

There are corrupted democrats such Suthep and Bantham but if they are closely studied, they are needed to the democrat for their daily running. they do things legally. Suthep was bashed hardly this time but no faults were found.

No suprise, most of democrat party expenses are secretly donated by good willed corporates and citizens today. PAD receive larger donation from good citizens too.
comment 25
Greenleave date : 23/07/2008 time : 23.41

I've always voted for Democrats but this time for the Bkk governer, I'll give my vote to AJ. Kriengsak.
comment 24
Greenleave date : 23/07/2008 time : 23.36

Pinola I totally agree with your post. I used to have hope about the Democrats and Khun Abhisit as the new generation of Thai politician regarding his qualification, attitudes and all. But in the end it seems like even the young blood like him cannot overcome the old-corrupted-Democrats politicians way and lead the party into the new light. Although I do want Thailand to get back to the system of democracy and all, the problem is we do not have any good parties to elect.
comment 23
Ian date : 23/07/2008 time : 17.04
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

It becomes increasingly clear to me, and this blog is an example, that a standard Thai style in debate is to assassinate ones opponent's character or credibility.
We see peacefulness attacking Ginola, not for his logic or comments, but for his age, experience and education.
We see the same in parliament, member don't discuss issues, they discuss personalities. It seems that Samak's appearance and behaviour is more important than his actual performance as a Prime Minister.
comment 22
macca date : 23/07/2008 time : 15.59

Wch...very interesting...can you tell me what is the situation for Petchaboon.....this is where my family in-laws (out-laws) come from
comment 21
wch date : 23/07/2008 time : 11.50

How Thaksin succeeded initially ?. This is not a mistery but a typical wisdom that were often tested in the past.

The power holding in Thailand is only a way, holding Bangkok first, then Isan. (here I will say Isan means the north and north easterners where 30 million people, or 50 % voters are available).

How to hold both ?. Bangkok needs a 'fashion' say 'new political wind' that makes them exciting.

Isan needs grabbing and organizing the poltical patrons. The patrons are the descendants of ex-Muang chief (Jao Muang) who own powerful feudality system. Another patrons are the products of abrupt political making policy of 1960s junta government. By this policy, most of provincial gansters registered own party. They were illegal stone quarrier, drug traffickers, smugglers, illegal traders, street protection gansters.
Chiangmai and Chiangrai were ruled by Intrananorn familiy (spelling might be correct) but later Chinnawat and in-laws group expelled them and grab powerful castle.
Supanburi is, Buriram, Chonburi, Ratchburi, Kalasin, Payao, Nakorn si Thammarat, Surat Thani,,,,,,, the first generation are still active and now the time to inherit to second generation.

Thaksin had organized these regional patrons with money first, then he started with his own plan, expell old patrons. To this, he promoted new local political hardline groups - OBOTO, OBOJO, local administration bodies. and issued arm licences.
This OBOTO OBOJO members were the bloody contenders against the feudal patron, They killed the opponents. The uncountable 5000 deaths were remained unsolved.
When he swept the second term, he almost succeeded the new organization and he daringly declared " next 10 years " even 20 years.

To keep this political machine, he needs money and he badly need the return of forfeited 2 billion dollars.
comment 20
peacefulness date : 23/07/2008 time : 11.48
nationmultimedia.com

Ginola--

comment 12
Ginola date : 08/07/2008 time : 14.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
ginola



You see people on tv and can "sense" if he/she is good or evil? Oh well... no comment on that.

Yes, indeed Mr.T, Newin and you name it are devil and corrupt. Yes, Mr.Samak isn't smart.

Yet, somehow, you failed to realize that many generals, Democrats (like Suthep and Banyat) are very corrupt and haven't done much good to this country too... Even Chuan the honest, he didn't do the corruption himself but allowed other of his friends and parties to do it freely...

Somehow you always see conflict of interests in Mr.T and co, which is true, but you always fails to see conflicts of interests of PAD people like Sonthi... his Manager empire has benefited well from this whole PAD thing hasn't it? Chamlong? Well, is he very smart? What success has he done to Bangkok when he was governor? Not much...

There are always evil in everyone. And indeed, Thai politics - be it inside or outside parliament, Thaksin's or Democrat parties or the PAD - has many corrupt and selfish individuals in it.

The above comment of yours on Seven's blog"the war between good and evil (mr t and the pad) indicates that you are so deceitful and fibbing to the democrats , and others.

Nobody requests your reply,
nobody attacks your age/education,

It is just a simple question that "less 25yrs old starts to talk rubbish all over the blog, what we can expect those young men granduated from the west?????????????? amen!!!!!!!!!!
comment 19
wch date : 23/07/2008 time : 09.33

When the people think of the Democrat of Thailand, they are easily illusioned of one, the American Democrats, or the southerner's party.

This is all wrong.
The Thai democrat was borned from the Free-Thai movement in the postmath of the World War II.
The movement was led by mainly then Thai students studying in US when this kingdom was at stake of war crime punishment by UN. They succeeded. The one of the student leaders was Seni Pramote. He was a lawyor and the representative lawyor on 1962 ICJ court on the castle mount Praviharn, Later he joined then formed, but unimpressive democrat party. Since this time, the democrat was fully fledged.

The democrat was strengthened by alliance with the 1970s student movement, easily say, Chuan's Anti-Junta movement.
The party hierachy has been lined from Chuan and Abhisit.

The democrat party has been the incubator for all those, controversial figures of today, - Samak, Noppadorn, Yongyudh, Jakrapob and the group of October 1976 led by Jaturon Chaisaeng (ex-TRT chief).
The October group was divided in three, the main stream remains in the democrat (Chuan), another group in Academia and the last one by Jaturon with ex-TRT who are now already banned in politics.

WHY SUCH PEOPLE LEFT THE DEMOCRAT ??.
This is big question to one who are not familiar to Thai politics and the democrat party itself.

The democrat's faith is the orthodox ideology of liberal democracy with strict political ethics. They are not to pursue a regional poltical party, nor the ruling power grabbing by way of national political sensation.

Those left such as Jakrapob is to have the faith of, in 'action' by which the party retrieves ruling power to change whole society.

Such action-oriented liberal democracy- very much progressive - was tried several times in past, who were, now defunct, Social Action Party, Citizen Party (Samak), Palangtham Party (Gen Chamlong).
All of them failed and seriously went into corruption or degraded. This proved abrupt change is not suitable to Thailand.

The democrat clearly understand, that, Thailand is the sovereignty loosely organized by various ethno-oriented regions and the unity could be acquired when the whole citizen acknowledge a single faith, say the political ideology and the system - Constitutional monarchism, fairly participated by all ethnos.

Your 'Uncle' wants a regional political party, who represents the unique political environment of, Songkla (This province is the flash point even since for last 2000 years between expanding Thai and Northerly extending Malay).

Chuan was borne in Trang from migrant Teochou'an parents and this impresses the southerners to believe Chuan is the "Son of the South " This is serious mistake that Chuan never wants to be.
Most of " Son of a Region" devoted to own home province by huge infra investments such as Barnharn Motorway (supanburi highway where no speed limit is applied), the Friendship highway to Korat when gen Chatchai was PM, Indochin Open Market at Mukdaharn, Nakorn Panom with Friendship Mekhong bridges by Gen. Chavalit.

Chuan never brought such luxurious bridge or highway to the south.

That is why the sourtherners are disappointed.
Simple !
(Even if Abhisit write, he wouldn't do better than I do here,
comment 18
narcisuss date : 22/07/2008 time : 23.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/narcisuss
I  come in peace :)

thanks for sharing that alternative perspective.
comment 17
PoNg date : 22/07/2008 time : 12.41
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/jaratpon

Very frank blog about the truth. I just hope that after the court and anti corruption graft get their way with Taksin, they would continue to implement the same standard of investigation to all politician, not just Taksin alone. If that can be done, this country would be a truely prosperous country.
comment 16
Ginola date : 22/07/2008 time : 10.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
ginola

Peacefulness:
See, you got my info wrong. It's the US, not the UK. I really hope Thailand doesn't have as many pooyai who looks down on young people. Attacking on my age is not fair, just like it's not ok to say that Samak is good because he is experienced. To be honest, I really pity your thinking, peacefulness. Ok, I'm not gonna reply to this kind of your comments any more. It's not constructive and a waste of time.
comment 15
peacefulness date : 22/07/2008 time : 10.28
nationmultimeid.com

Ginola-- correction from uk should be from US.

pls ref your blog " a reflection of thai democracy dated 19de07" Qte in celebration of my finishing of final exam Unqte

and ur blog " what drives samak rude behavior dated 16nov2007" Qte Ian- ggrass- Imust thank...................and being 23yrs of age Unqte

and in seven's blog "crisis the non stupid thais against the stupid thais dated 10jun08 " comment 14 11/06/08 12.33 Qte I am well educated - having graduated with honors from a prestigious Thai university and doing graduate study in one of the best schools in the US Unqte.

all infomations are totally from you. tks

all you have mentioned in this blog just a lousy accusation all the others, why i hv to intellecutally response, young man ginola. tks amillion.
comment 14
Ginola date : 21/07/2008 time : 23.52
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
ginola

Mama-san:
My previous comment, "I'm afraid we will have very few politicians left in this country if all the corrupt ones were to be punished!", is meant to be a joke, because so many of politicians are corrupt in one way or another. I wasn't saying that corrupt politicians should not be punished. My whole point is that everyone should be treated equally - I don't like it when I see Thaksin and co being tried while people like Suthep live happily ever after.

Ian:
Yea, I think I will be corrupt in some way too because of 2 reasons: 1) there are "channels" to avoid the law and 2) the system itself would have required me, or people around me, to be corrupt, to help my friends in order for me to maintain power...

Lalida:
I think Thaksin doesn't need to buy votes to win but I'm pretty sure he's involved, like any other politicians are, in money politics. Money given to vote banks or hua kanan is part of the election tradition in Thailand... It's just the way it is and nobody seems to have a practical solution to solving this problem.

Expresso:
Thanks for your comment. Some see logic in this blog, others like you don't. That's fine, and sorry to have wasted your time reading it then.

Max:
Couldn't agree more on your last part. The Democrats just never realize or never intend to reform their own party. They always point fingers at others and at the same time they would say things like "Samak always points fingers at others, blaming others and not himself." Well, that very same thing could have perfectly described the Democrats too.

Peacefulness:
Your comment suggests that you don't really seem to favor peace like your name says. Since your comment is an attack on my education and age, I'll take it as you don't know how else to oppose the points made in my blog intellectually. Thanks for your extremely mature comment in my childish blog anyway. And just for the record, you've got my information wrong out there.
comment 13
peacefulness date : 21/07/2008 time : 23.18
nationmultimedia.com

someone just out from the campus from uk last year, less then 25yrs old starts to talk rubbish all over the blog-site.

What we can expect those young men graduated from the west???????? amen!!!!!!!!
comment 12
MaxHeadroom date : 21/07/2008 time : 10.34
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/maxheadroom

I share some of your uncles views - especially the fact the fact that about misdemeanor under Chuan's rule with his laissez-faire attitude towards his subordinates doing corruption and then claiming to be clean because of closing his eyes.

I see, that as soon as you try to bring on a discussion addressing the polarization and bias in our society your blog will be spammed.

The later is because there is a strong Democrat lobby here that never disappoints to leach out on a spam flood as the last place they want to reform is their party.
comment 11
expresso date : 21/07/2008 time : 03.29
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/expresso

Why such a long story to invoke brain and logic?

Frankly, I don't see any!

Why don't you join the blog of Patriot about unity?
comment 10
Ian date : 20/07/2008 time : 17.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Law enforcement in Thailand is selectively applied, from a minor traffic violation up to murder the penalty depends upon who you are and how rich you are.
Ginola, in such an regime you would become inevitably corrupt. We all break the laws at times. Suppose you were stopped by a traffic policeman for speeding and you use your position to get it overlooked. Your son gets busted for drugs, so you get it overlooked. This is human nature, protect yourself and your nearest and dearest.
The easier it is to sidestep a law the faster corruption grows.
comment 9
Lalida date : 20/07/2008 time : 15.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Ginola,

Is it not all politicians the same, the only difference is one gets things done and the others does nothing or does something selectively.

You wrote "I think the reality is that Thaksin would have won in Isan without spending much money to buy votes, just as the Democrats would have won in the south without doing so."

This is one thing that people don't see the logic in it and try so hard to twist the facts. "Common sense" why would anyone be stupid enough to spend so much to buy any votes if they already knew they've won the hearts of their supporters. Accusations after accusations, how much truth is there? If one just use his/her brain for a while, they just might understand the logic of it.
comment 8
MamaSan date : 20/07/2008 time : 14.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mamasan

Ginola-San,

I don't know if you know Chinese or not, but we have a saying that has been said many times by others in this blog, and it is "kill the chicken to teach the monkeys."

If the laws of Thailand pertaining to corruption, theft, robberies and such acts were formulated and written properly, and if the prescribed punishments were realisitc enough such that offending criminals were punished severely, Thailand will not be in the current situation.

I don't know how many times have I heard the laments of people who said why is this or that politician or government official punished for their misdeeds other than being transfered to an "inactive post."

In the private sector do you see employees being transfered to inactive posts when they commit serious offence against their employers? Why do the Thai people allow this king of situation to continue to occur?

Ask yourself this question and come up with a realistic answer.


Mama San
Bangkok
July 20, 2008
comment 7
Ginola date : 20/07/2008 time : 12.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola
ginola

MamaSan,

I'm afraid we will have very few politicians left in this country if all the corrupt ones were to be punished!

Sometimes, I wonder, if I were to enter politics, will I be corrupt, even if I don't intend to do so in the first place?
comment 6
MamaSan date : 20/07/2008 time : 00.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mamasan

Ian-San,

No problem, sir! Just leave them to the Cantonese chefs.

If they can cook very delicious chicken and duck feets in brown gravy sauce, then they can surely find a way to cook these millions of amputated hands.

The monkeys would then really have a feast of their lives!




Mama San
Bangkok
July 20, 2008
comment 5
Ian date : 20/07/2008 time : 00.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Mamasan, "All corrupt and dishonest politicians and government officials". Hm, what are you going to do with several million amputated hands, is there a market for them?
comment 4
MamaSan date : 19/07/2008 time : 22.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mamasan

All corrupt and dishonest politicians and government officials, regardless of Party affiliations, should be caned and have their hands chopped off (like in Saudi Arabia when thieves have their hands cut off).

There needs to be justice in this country, and there needs to be meaningful punishments to go with the justice, or these crooks will never learn and never be afraid of breaking the law.


Mama San
Bangkok
July 19, 2008
comment 3
Ian date : 19/07/2008 time : 22.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Exactly so, Thaksin is corrupt but so are the Democrats, Thaksin got things done, Democrats just talk.
comment 2
iceberg date : 19/07/2008 time : 20.50
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ranchhand

An incredible eye opening to the truth. Excellent thesis with real people collaborative evidence. Former PM Taksin, if he found guilty of all those crimes agianst the nation, he should be punished together with his family and cronies. When someone is taking the laws in their own hand this way, the country is only heading into chaos. We already have serious problems in the South with lost of lives and property everyday. We cannot afford another on in the East, especially when the disputes can be settled and challenged in the international court of law.
comment 1
FelixQui date : 19/07/2008 time : 19.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/FelixQui

An interesting personal perspective.
Thanks for posting it.
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