• panya
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Meandering pathways
Monday , June 22 , 2009
NEW BUSES? WHAT ABOUT TRAINS?
Posted by panya , Reader : 2359 , 15:20:28  
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I was interested to read that the SRT (State Railway of Thailand) has never made a profit since its inception in 1951, that's 58 years!  Its debts now stand at 69 billion.  The government have recently restructured the SRT, splitting it into separate cost/profit centres, and there is talk that the operator of the Jatujak Weekend Market will face a steep rent increase for the SRT land on which the market stands.


69 billion baht in accumulated losses.  That's not even 10% more than the government are keen to spend in one splash on new buses for Bangkok alone!  And the SRT network covers almost the whole country and services almost the entire Thai population.


And now the SRT are pinning their hopes on a rejuvenation of fortune from the imminent Airport Rail Link.  Curious.  One rail link within Greater Bangkok will be so profitable as to spring the organisation out of the red?


Last time I (foolishly) visited that 70s/80s paradise island of Koh Samui, I went by train.  It was a great journey, through some beautiful scenery.  But I was struck at how much of the distance was only single track.  And every so often, there were pieces of dual track where the train ground to a standstill so the northbound express could go past.  Sometimes we waited 15-30 minutes.  At other times, we sped past a northbound train which was waiting in a bit of dual track for us to pass.  I think the same was true on the lines up to Chiang Mai and Nong Khai, but I'm not sure.


If the pieces of dual track were joined together, and there certainly is room alongside most of the single track stretches, the trains would not have to stop in either direction, except of course at stations.  Which means there could be more trains.  Which moves more people, buying more tickets.  And IF the trains could go in both directions at once without worry, there could be more trains at the same time, and even more tickets sold.  As petrol prices rise, this could pay handsomely for more passengers, and also, more competitively priced freight.


The Sprinter train I travelled on served complimentary food twice, but the ticket was cheaper than an ordinary train which takes longer.  Ordinary trains have kitchen carriages which are full of people drinking Mekhong and Soda sets.  Food is delivered by staff, but dishes can be as little as 35 baht.  So why is it free on cheaper fast trains?


Deputy PM Suthep is from Surat, but probably flies.  He liked the idea of new buses for Bangkok.  How about dual tracks for the railways?  Extra 3rd class aircon carriages so people can still travel cheap, and increased prices for 2nd and 1st class, with more 1st Class coaches.  There would be minimal fare rise impact on passengers, as the trains would be faster and more frequent.  Refurbish the kitchen carriages and make them canteen style.  Sell food like they're giving away on the Sprinter as well as kitchen prepared dishes.  Less staff walking up and down serving, leave that for the hawkers at various stations.


Hasn't anyone ever thought of this?  They must have!  It would not be that large an investment.  Newin wants to get Bangkok's votes by buying 4000 buses;  the Democrats could get the country's votes by buying dual tracks and revamping the SRT! 


Read comment

comment 43
notdisappointed date : 01/07/2009 time : 15.50

t8 c41, dig? what dig? I didn't notice only that you were stunned by my brilliance!

If only the Thai state enterprise unions could see beyond their own selfishness. Thailand is poised to be a major logistical hub for the SE Asian economies. We can offer ourselves as a service provider not only an agricutural provider. But who will have the foresight and vision to take advantage of this plum opportunity?

It's not isolated to only the state unions; it seems that many Thais have succumbed and accepted that graft and corruption is a part of our daily lives. We have become or will become a failed state because our people do not hold principles and integrity as defining their moral bahavior. Against all that HMK has advised the Thai people to be weary and not accept unscrupulous politicians; we have gone the othdr way and have opened our arms to the 'dark side' as a method of growth.

Shame on us and shame on our leaders who have shown and given us a poor example of what it means to be selfsacrificing and working for the public good.
comment 42
Ian date : 29/06/2009 time : 17.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

When the tunnel linking Britain with Europe ( The Channel tunnel), the question arose should it be for cars etc or trains.
Then someone pointed out that trains can, and do, carry cars, but cars cannot carry trains. Further a standardised freight container can travel by road, rail and sea.
comment 41
taurus8 date : 29/06/2009 time : 15.55

NT, Thailand is strategically situated as a distribution center for its Indo-China hinterland just as Singapore is to SEA. It has better developed shipping ports and road system than most Indo-China countries. As the Indo-China countries developed, the economic benefits are immensed.

Unfortunately, the rail system is always the poor counsin whe comes to budget allocation for developement. Rail has the most potential of the 3 logistical distribution methods. It can move larger volume of goods around and therefore has the scale to be cheaper than other transportation methods. That the SRT union is holding back its potential is a tragedy. I just hope that they will participate in a productive way in the joint council and act responsibly.

BTW, hope I did not offend you with the light hearted dig.
comment 40
notdisappointed date : 29/06/2009 time : 12.04

t8, unsure who you are commending.

What we also need are more limited access motorways linking North/South and East/West corridors for fast and efficient logistics between Myanmar and Vietnam and Southern China with Singapore.

Thailand is strategically placed to be the central logistic byway for SE Asia and we should quickly take advantage of this fact with a troika of key logistical development: Rail; Roads, and Seaports
comment 39
taurus8 date : 29/06/2009 time : 09.17

NT, not exactly a bad idea combining a tunnel with drainage. The KL tunnel was constructed based on your concept. It function as a tunnel on dry days and when extremely bad monsoon days and threat of flooding in the city; the tunnel is closed to traffic and become a drainage tunnel. Water from the sub-drainage system floods though the tunnel to a retaining pond. NT, you are brillant.
comment 38
panya date : 28/06/2009 time : 22.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

I don't think a tunnel is such a bad idea. Hong Kong has a couple under the Fragrant Harbour and they don't have drainage problems. Calcutta has an underground system which survives the monsoon. Technologically, it has a far greater likelihood of success than a nuclear plant which I agree would be pushing luck just a bit too far.
comment 37
notdisappointed date : 28/06/2009 time : 20.50

Hap, the tunnel I fear may well trun out to be a rather large 'drainage tunnel' as you said for the rainy season.

We now have elevated klongs, on the Rama 9 flyover between Soonvijai and Ramkhampaeng Rd. Why not a drainage tunnel.
comment 36
happyjack date : 28/06/2009 time : 08.05

A Tunnel, thats a good idea.Full of Water in the Rainy Season, and Car Wrecks when its Dry.
comment 35
notdisappointed date : 27/06/2009 time : 22.19

Hap, said consultants are to be 'quasi-management' was still to being worked out then the strike wihich put a damper on it. Consultants will in no way rock the boat re. management of SRT parent. That's suicide. What DB want to do is to be in a position to advise and invest in the dual carriageway, hi-speed rail to eastern seaboard and North/South route, and logistic services for the Laem Chabang frieght line for SRT.

Ian, Those were my exact words a couple of years ago when I heard that they planned to dig a tunnel under the Chao Phrya River to connect both sides of the river for passenger cars and trucks! I won't try it under it's been test-run over a five year period and even then I still might use it.
comment 34
Ian date : 27/06/2009 time : 17.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

ND,32. Your comment, " becuase their skills level aren't up to task." reminds me of the first thought that passed through my head when I heard Thailand was thinking a nuclear reactor, it was "Oh shit!".
comment 33
happyjack date : 27/06/2009 time : 15.15

Cradle to Grave Benefits ?..So Management and Operatives have one aim in Common.The Consultants will also recommend changes to Management,if they are an Ethical Company.
comment 32
notdisappointed date : 27/06/2009 time : 12.39

Hap. The fuse that set off the SRT union strike was because SRT were/are going to hire Dutsche Bahn the German logistic and rail company to adivise on the Airport Link. A Subsidiary company is to be established solely for the mangement of said porject. The union are afraid that they won't be hired to work in the new 'private' company becuase their skills level aren't up to task.

So they made a pre-emptive strike as a silver hammer hammer to beat on the head of SRT for management to allow SRT labor people to be hired but with SRT fringe benefits. AS though the higher salary and a private company's benefits weren't enough they want cradle to grave benefits!
comment 31
happyjack date : 26/06/2009 time : 20.37

By the way,perhaps Air Asia could advise S.R.T.
comment 30
happyjack date : 26/06/2009 time : 20.32

That Mrs Thatcher had more balls than the Men.Ridiculous, compered to Who.? Brown and Blair,get a Life.Unions now run England.
comment 29
panya date : 26/06/2009 time : 19.18
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

C28

It is enough to push a sane person towards advocating privatisation, but memories of what that ridiculous woman Thatcher did to the trains in Britain hold me back.

When I took the train from the southern tip of India up to Calcutta (the length of the sub-continent), it arrived 3 minutes late. Two weeks later, I took a 2 hour journey across England and we arrived 45 minutes late.

Privatisation is not the answer to inefficient unprofitable state railways. Dismissal, unemployment, investment, staff training and public support are a good starter.
comment 28
notdisappointed date : 26/06/2009 time : 16.08

Nation June 24, "23 state firms will request increase of living allowance".

Nuff said.
comment 27
notdisappointed date : 26/06/2009 time : 13.05

The EGAT union are doing themselves another service by requesting their own version of AV's B2,000 paycheck. Whereas AV's is a one-time deal to for those making less than B15,000. The EGAT union say they want B2,000 for 12 months and for those making less than B50,000. They say it's only fair since EGAT makes alot of money and contributes it to the government coffers.

Sound logic if could be found anywhere!
comment 26
happyjack date : 26/06/2009 time : 10.17

Some Mafia,they havent beaten the Bosses yet.
comment 25
Ian date : 26/06/2009 time : 02.10
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

ND, 24. Yes I suspect the Thai unions are more like the American ones in the days when they were run by gangsters, perhaps they still are.
comment 24
notdisappointed date : 25/06/2009 time : 16.07

t8,c22; then we also have the PAT larbor union who are living off of the tit of Thai taxpayers. Graft and corruption at the Klong Toey and Laem Chabang Ports have been estimated at BILLIONS of Baht per year.

Every single government enterprise labor union EGAT, Tobacco, SRT, PAT, THAI are graft ridden not the socialistic unions that our friend Ian expects.
comment 23
happyjack date : 25/06/2009 time : 07.54

A Word about Unions.You cant compare the Rail Union here with the West.They can hardly prize a Living Wage out of High Living Bosses.Nationwide,in all Trades the Thai Boss with a few exceptions represents the Unacceptable Face of Capitalism.Youre point taurus8, reminds me of The Bosses Son,who lives in a Benz
Show Room,with no right to own a Moped.
comment 22
taurus8 date : 24/06/2009 time : 15.22

The heart of the problem is the SRT Union. Just like the automobile union in USA which bleed the GMs to death; it is no difference here. The union is myopic, unreasonable and worst; has a political agenda. Unions have a role in the economy of any nations but if it has a political affliation, it become an obstacle to progress and profitability.
comment 21
noonin date : 23/06/2009 time : 20.56
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Good steam Panya.
Many tourists enjoy travelling by train.
Much freight is best transported by train.
Many people can travel without their cars by train.
I love trains.
comment 20
panya date : 23/06/2009 time : 19.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Piset C18

"It would take the babies that were born through their mommies' anus to incur any loss with so much land ownership on its hands"


comment 19
panya date : 23/06/2009 time : 19.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

nd C17

Yes, I blogged before the strike, and thought it rather ironic that after my suggestion (which I have been pondering for a while) they decided to take a holiday.

I totally agree. They are worried about the restructuring and that it might require them to fulfil some aspect of the work they are supposedly paid for. And this of course is disguised as concern for the impact of fare rises on the passengers. You know it's nonsense, as do I, as do they.

Maybe the restructuring has not been sold very well to them (or their union leaders). Maybe they fear that hiving off the Airport Link is going to mean modernity and profits on that line whilst the rest of the network is left to the squalor and filth it has become. This is not their fault, it is the fault of those who floated the idea to them. It was the same when the first Meter Taxis appeared - fear and hostility amongst those without meters until they found out that they too could fit a meter and join the plush ranks.

That's why I advocate a major investment in an upgrade of a large chunk of line, and a refurbishment of existing stock, to make it worth their while to support it. Generally speaking, most humans will take some pride in their work if they can see the benefit and result. The fares wouldn't have to rise very much to make it operate profitably; if the Ministry of Transport actually had some people who could do costings, they might be able to get a slight wage increase built in. There are ways of overhauling state enterprises without alienating the workforce. As Piset observed, the Chinese have made it work, and Indian Railways is possibly the best example in the world, though I have no knowledge of its profitability, only its amazing operational success. Do the SRT executives know anything about railway networks? Or scheduling? Or staff training and motivation? Or expense analysis? I mean, what ARE they paid for?

And there are talks. And talks. Extending the Airport Link (which should have been ready when the airport opened). How many years did it take to extend the Skytrain across the Chaopraya, when the bridge was already there? How many years of talks were needed to build the Don Meuang Tollway? As Netnapit mentioned, how many years of talks for the Skytrain?

Every year at Songkran, Loy Kratong, and various other holidays, the country is paralysed by people travelling. The blue and white buses (and their VIP cousins) are well used at all other times. Trains can move a lot of people, especially when they are 18 coaches long, and when they don't have to stop to let other trains pass. The Skytrain was empty when it started - now they've got so many people there's bloody advertising! Ditto the Underground. Ten years ago, 1st Class trains were empty and 2nd Class mainly farang. Now they're full! When will the government wake up? Goddamned politicians......

Sorry to waffle on - I feel like an old locomotive letting off steam
comment 18
Piset date : 23/06/2009 time : 18.56
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

Even the apes should be able to make profit out of running the railroad systems. With the concessions on the land ownership that goes along the tracks, do you know that the State Railroad System is one of the biggest landlords in Thailand.
Look at how it managed to get only the peanuts for the state when it came to the question of the concession for the uses of its land at Central Plaza Lardprao. Not until somebody screamed hell, did they upped the charge for the use of that parcel of land to more than 20 times originally offered by Central group.

Do you know that the advertising companies that gotten the concession on the advertising on the train body and at the subway stations were laughing all the wqy to the bank.

It would take the babies that were born through their mommies' anus to incur any loss with so much land ownership on its hands.
comment 17
notdisappointed date : 23/06/2009 time : 18.28

Panya, I take it you blogged this 'before' the news that the SRT union deceided to strike because they are against any type of restructuring.

They say that a restructuring of the lost-rideen state enterprise will be a hardship on the ridership becasue with improvements prices will have to rise.

Actually what they're thinking is; any restructuring will lose them their hard-earned do-nothing jobs and benefits: until death. Then you have to consider the pilferage and graft at every level of the SRT. From cleaning people, to train opereators to maintenance and etc. there is graft and mostly in the maintenance because parts, supplies, and equipment tend to get lost.

There has been talk of a dual carriage-way between Bangkok and the Eastern Provinces of Chonburi and Rayong. And a North/South dual carriageway. Actually; discussions have been underway for the Airpoprt Link to be extended to Chinburi and Rayong to make a fast track 'commuter service'. And for the ARL to extend North to Rangsit.

All dreams until the figures are agreed and cake is divided. This needs a stable government that can push the project to fulfilment which needs about at least two-years; one year for the 'feasibility study' and the second year to find suitable contractor who'll win the 'Tender'; and pay 'commission' to the politicians.
comment 16
happyjack date : 23/06/2009 time : 18.19

C15. You can see the Sleepers and the Steel,they sit on the ballast..How many Tons went missing at Taksins Folly.?..Runway Cracks, remember.
comment 15
panya date : 23/06/2009 time : 17.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

HJ C11/C12

The sleepers are all cement nowadays, and the rails are steel. What more could one want for inflated pricing?

I did see mention today in Khun Burin's letter in the BP that Korn has some project on the cards including double tracks, so maybe he knows a good idea when he sees one.......
comment 14
panya date : 23/06/2009 time : 17.12
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Lurker C10

A modern train system would be cool, and welcome for all the reasons they are using to justify the world's most expensive buses.

Yes, Hat Yai to Bangkok is a bit of a shaker..., wouldn't be so bad if they didn't stop so often. Great in 1st Class!





HJ C12
comment 13
panya date : 23/06/2009 time : 17.06
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Piset C7

A friend travelling through Thailand was planning on going up to China and then by train to Lhasa, he had researched the trip and it seemed fast, not overly expensive, comfortable and with breathtaking scenery too. With a fast and modern system l;ike that, people would certainly think twice about driving.

Even the Malaysian system is not bad, I thought, when I went down to Singapore some years back. We did get derailed, which was a bit hairy as we were on an embankment, but other than that, it was a good trip.

It just needs someone with the balls to make the decision to do it, and keep the fares low enough to achieve the volume. And after 58 years of losses, what is there to lose, really.
comment 12
happyjack date : 23/06/2009 time : 13.08

Regarding a Twin Track System,there is not enough Cement work involved,Seel Content is harder to fiddle,and Policoes Brothers are mainly in Cement,like the Airport.
comment 11
happyjack date : 23/06/2009 time : 12.59

There was once in the Good Old Days a Family who served food so good Thais joined the Train just to Eat and catch the Return Train Home.There must be someone out there who can elaborate.Part of the Rail Workers dispute is about your Comments Today.Now, if a Ferang can report this,why did the Nation Not do so...?.Yes, i am a Capitalist,but stifle a valid point,never.
comment 10
lurker date : 23/06/2009 time : 12.52
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/lurker

I love the Skytrain and subway in Bangkok.

Why can't the country manage all public transport like that?

Honestly, I have no clue if the skytrain and subway are making money either.

As far as going upcountry, I have mostly taken flights.

I took the train once--from Hat Yai to Bangkok-- and it was one of the worst experiences of my life.

The upcountry bus system isn't bad.

I actually think it would be kind of cool if Thailand had a modern train system.
comment 9
netnapit date : 23/06/2009 time : 02.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/netnapit

I hope that what we are seeing going on with state enterprises is like what happened with the skytrain.

The Thai government sat on proposals for subway-skytrain systems for some 20 years before something gave out. Once BTS was built, we suddenly discovered that what was thought impossible (subways) was actually quite acheivable.

58 years without a profit is totally amazing.
comment 8
Alien date : 22/06/2009 time : 22.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/alien

Comment 3 - Great idea. I have worked out a budget for you. 200 billion for the politicians and 180 billion to actually build the new system. Everything's a go.
comment 7
Piset date : 22/06/2009 time : 21.16
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/mahwatthai
Piset

Having spent half of my life in Thailand and many more years in the US, these countries had unquestionably convinced me that train is an obsolete means of transportation and that operating train transportation could only incur heavy losses.

During the early years of my stay in China in the 90's, the old beat up trains and inefficient train services here in China also further convinced me of that thought.

However, folks, you really cannot say the same thing about railway and train transportation any more once you ahve witnesses what they have done to the railroad transportation in China.

The 250-300 km/hour D-trains here are making you running out of reason to take a passenger plane or take a long drive yourself.

If you notice, none of China's big cities are talking about increasing the number of buses any more. In cities like Shanghai, Guangzhou, Beijing, Chongqing, Nanjing, Hangzhou, they are now building many subway to avoid traffic congestion on the ground and air quality worsening. In Shanghai, all 11 subway lines will be operation by the middle of next year.

When that is done, according to the city planning, no homes in Shanghai would be miore than 300 metres from a subway station.

For heaven sake, tell those NGV bus maker to donate their buses to Indonesia so that they could be used to replace the pedicabs, that is, being dumped into the sea to create the artificial corals for the fish.
comment 6
panya date : 22/06/2009 time : 20.38
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Noonin

I agree it is obvious, and would be a make make win win. So why has it never been proposed, or if it has, why has nothing happened?
comment 5
noonin date : 22/06/2009 time : 18.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Comment 3
If I had capital and a Thai, it has to be a make make proposition.
comment 4
noonin date : 22/06/2009 time : 18.39
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/noonin

Comment 3
So obvious.
Why?
comment 3
panya date : 22/06/2009 time : 16.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Hey! Let's fantasize a bit.

Dual tracks, new technology, high speed trains (with a bit of track replacement), super VIP 1st Class coaches, Bkk-Chiang Mai 6 hours, etc etc

I think we have the makings of a Super MegaProject here.....


comment 2
panya date : 22/06/2009 time : 16.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Being electric, that may well be the case, but all the more reason to maximise profits! If you don't get it free on longer journeys, why on these?

As a side note, the carriages were the worst condition of any train I have ever travelled on in Thailand, even the aircon was broken (so even more profit....!)
comment 1
Ian date : 22/06/2009 time : 15.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I am guessing, but could it be that the Sprinter is much more energy efficient than the older trains, so they can afford to compete on fare prices and food?
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