• Ian
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Saturday , May 10 , 2008
What do they fear?
Posted by Ian , Reader : 511 , 11:03:54  
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Yesterday we visited Samak Phakon, we first visited an enormous 3 headed elephant, then we set out to visit a shellfish farm called "Don hoi lot", apparently famous for its sea birds.

I say apparently as we were denied entry, it seemed the Princess was paying a visit. We supected something was up as we drove along the dual carriageway towards the place.  At 25 metre intervals along the roadside was stationed a policeman frantically waving at us to hurry up.

Having been denied entry we started to return on the other carriageway of the road, only to encounter a stationary jam of traffic. By this time the other carriageway was deserted apart from police cars and police on foot. Eventually after a wait of about 20 minutes 4 high speed police cars zoomed past followed by 4 cream coloured cars, then three more police cars and finally after a few minutes a solitary police car.  5 minutes later we started to move. I was told that the princess would have been in one of the four cream cars but no one would know which.

This entire event has left me puzzled, the Royal family is held in high esteem by the entire Thai population, the princess is in particular very popular for her work on behalf of the poor. So why all the excessive security? I can understand wanting to give her a clear traffic free run as a token of respect, but why the massive police presence and the three dummy cream cars?

Again I was told that this level of security is the wish of the army, not the Royal family. So what does the army fear, or is it just a show of power?


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comment 42
MakubeX date : 16/05/2008 time : 20.51
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

"An unconscious farang would automatically end up at the most expensive hospital"

If only to prevent the scandal of a foreigner dying in the country. Most tourists should have some kind of medical insurance anyway and foreigners who work for reputable firms should be covered or can reclaim the costs.

"Many tourists enjoy it they do a complete circle just for the experience"

In all my travels and conversations, I have yet to hear any tourist say that about the Circle Line. May be it was like that when the Iron Curtain was still up, but it's certainly not like that now.

This blog has just turned into one big red herring. Perhaps if you're interested in comparing various city's transport system, you should just start a separate blog on it?
comment 41
Ian date : 16/05/2008 time : 19.30
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

So summarising GG and makube, an unconscious farang would automatically end up at the most expensive hospital
Funny thing is, when I used the Mission Hospital in Lan Luang, I found it incredibly cheap, in spite of being private.

Makube, when I say the Circle Line is for tourists, many tourists enjoy it they do a complete circle just for the experience.
As for the locals, if one comes along they will take it, but they would not wait for one knowing it could be anything up to a 40 minutes wait on a bad day. Normally they take whatever comes and hop around between the lines, its automatic you learn the navigation tricks as a child.
comment 40
MakubeX date : 16/05/2008 time : 17.58
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Ggrass, may be she'd bleed to death before she'd get to her cheap hospital? May be the expensive hospital was the only one in the PTT's zone? It's hard to tell without specifics.

In any case, patients always have the option of transferring to another hospital once their condition has stabilised. If she was so concerned about the costs of treatment and was still conscious, she should have asked the hospital accountants about the details, and if she was unsatisfied, transferred to another hospital.

I don't know about you, but if I was unconscious and bleeding to death I wouldn't care about which hospital I was sent to. If I was still conscious and the injury wasn't serious, I'd get on a taxi to whichever hospital I preferred.

Ian, there may be easier routes, but that's absolutely no excuse for having a malfunctioning line for the last 20+ years. If the Circle Line is for "tourists" at this rate there'll be a whole lot of pissed off tourists in 2012. Not good publicity for the city's "efficient" transport system. Plus with Boris running the show now, it's hard to see whether things will get better or worse before then.
comment 39
Ian date : 16/05/2008 time : 13.42
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Makube, read this, particularly the section near the end on alternative routes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A592995
Sensible people avoid the circle line, in most cases a zig-zag course will avoid it.
The central line is for tourists
comment 38
GGrass date : 16/05/2008 time : 10.12
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

There was a case, I forgot the details, but it goes something like this.

A woman was hit by truck while riding a motorcycle. The PTT came, and took her to a hospital. Then, after the treatment, the woman said the hospital bill was too expensive. And she complained why the PTT had to drop her off at an expensive hospital, rather than a cheap hospital.

-_-,
comment 37
MakubeX date : 15/05/2008 time : 20.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Ian, that's all well and good, but drivers still complain regardless.

I wish they'd fix the bloody Circle Line. It seems there's been "engineering works" on that line since I first came to the city more than 20 years ago! The mere mention of it to fellow travellers still sends a shiver up their spines. It's not even the oldest line in the system.
comment 36
Ian date : 15/05/2008 time : 20.02
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

makube, not only is the London network computerised but drivers can access parts to help plan their journey
http://trafficalerts.tfl.gov.uk/microsite/

It is the largest dynamic network management system in the world.

3000 traffic light directly controlled by a central computer
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ITS-DTO.pdf
comment 35
MakubeX date : 15/05/2008 time : 18.15
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Ian, since the system will be monitored by the police themselves, I doubt it'll "detect" anything like that. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Most of the London traffic system is probably computerised but I find it frustrating to stop and slow down every half a mile for traffic lights and pedestrian crossings. Bangkok I think still relies a lot on the manual system; city authorities did try to introduce a more comprehensive computerised system but apparently that got destroyed by a "flood." More likely, the police preferred the manual system, for obvious reasons.

GGrass, in the past, some hospitals would actually reject patients delivered to them by the volunteers, accounting for at least 15% of emergency patients' deaths. I think it's still the case that hospitals have no legal requirement to accept patients, so most of the volunteer organisations now have funds to put in a patient for at least three days; I'd rather the hospitals take (or give) that money than leave some guy bleeding to death just because they think the poor guy didn't have insurance or a wealthy relative.
comment 34
GGrass date : 15/05/2008 time : 14.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

MakubeX: I'm talking about the money you get from the hospital for bringing the customers... not pillaging from the deads...
comment 33
Ian date : 15/05/2008 time : 09.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Makube, yes CCTV would not only show drivers but also police collecting their daily "wages"
Another factor that has me wondering is the speed of change of traffic lights, often more than 5 minutes in Bangkok. In London they change much faster and are often synchronised along a stretch of road.
I wonder if any studies have ever been done to determine the optimum change over time?
comment 32
MakubeX date : 14/05/2008 time : 23.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

That'll depend on which roads you're talking about and the route the buses will take. Main thoroughfares like, for example, Sukhumvit or Ladprao is still a daily nightmare despite the addition of the BTS and MRT. A bus lane on those roads probably won't improve matters.

CCTV, despite having been used for so many years, is still a contentious issue in your home country, so I'm not sure whether introducing it to Thailand at this juncture would be a good idea. To be honest, I don't want Thailand to become another Big Brother country and I'd rather that the police were out on patrols rather than spend their time drinking tea and reading newspapers in a control room.
comment 31
Ian date : 14/05/2008 time : 17.59
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Makube, I think road width is a bit of a red herring:-) I think London roads and Bangkok roads are rather similar in width. Yes, our bus lanes also get abused, but as most are monitored by CCTV you run a risk if you do so. Recently in another blog it was suggested that Bangkok would also be investing in such technology. Perhaps when this happens the Ministry of the Interior might have a rethink.
comment 30
MakubeX date : 14/05/2008 time : 17.21
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Ian, Bangkok has enough problems with bicycle lanes being improperly used, never mind bus lanes. That scheme probably won't take off here unless the roads are expanded - something that would be contentious and expensive.

There are helicopter ambulances, but they're mainly dispatched by private hospitals and exist in an ad hoc basis rather than as an integrated part of a universal network. To have the latter network running in Thailand, you'd need the co-operation of both the Ministry of Interior (they handle safety on the road and traffic laws) and the Ministry of Public Health who would organise and run the system, set proper standards, and, among other things, make sure that the hospitals don't reject the patients delivered to them.

You'd have a better chance of getting Salman Rushdie to become the Pope than get these two ministries to work together, which is a pity.

GGrass, I doubt they'd try to extract money in those circumstances. Superstition would overrule it; it is definitely bad karma after all if one has the power to help but doesn't. It's worse especially if it's a lady giving birth and suffering complications. Ghosts of women who die in child-birth are among the most vicious in Thai mythology.
comment 29
Ian date : 14/05/2008 time : 08.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Does Thailand have helicopter ambulances?
comment 28
GGrass date : 13/05/2008 time : 21.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

MakubeX: coz the money is good?
comment 27
Ian date : 13/05/2008 time : 19.23
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

In England it is illegal for an ambulance, or a police car, to use its lights and sirens unless it is an emergency. If it is a non emergency, say a hospital transfer, then it just has to cope with the traffic like any other vehicle.
Another useful factor in london is we have bus lanes which emergency vehicles can also use.
comment 26
MakubeX date : 13/05/2008 time : 16.15
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Ian, that will depend on the policeman and whether the ambulance/fire engine had radioed on ahead (or got another police officer earlier on the route to do so), then they'll do all they can to help. But the traffic in Bangkok being what it is, what they can do will be limited by conditions and how well-coordinated each sector is.

However corrupt they are, if it's an undeniably urgent case, then they'll do what they can to help. It's human nature after all; that's not limited to Europeans. But you can forget about it if it's just a routine hospital transfer.

GGrass, why do you think the PTT end up being the first responders in the majority of cases?
comment 25
GGrass date : 13/05/2008 time : 08.08
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

MakubeX: Have you ever been chased by PTT trucks? Is it possible NOT to move?
comment 24
Ian date : 12/05/2008 time : 23.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Let me move the discussion on before it gets too contentious:-)
If a Thai policeman saw an ambulance or fire engine snarled up in traffic would he see it as his duty to try to unsnarl it? A European policeman would.
comment 23
MakubeX date : 12/05/2008 time : 16.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

...but they move for Por Tek Teung.
comment 22
GGrass date : 12/05/2008 time : 16.11
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

MakubeX: So, in conclusion, Thais in general, DON'T move for ambulances. Period.
comment 21
MakubeX date : 12/05/2008 time : 15.48
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

Catch 22, if that's your best supercilious reply, whatever...

GGrass, sorry to hear that. But the reality is, most Thais in cities wouldn't call and wait for an ambulance if it's an emergency, so the assumption is that if it's an ambulance it's not an emergency (and this is the case for the majority of cases when ambulances are out). Some people do move for ambulances, but generally they'd just come back from long stays in other countries.

But as you've noticed yourself, it's a different matter if it's a PTT vehicle, because they know that if the PTT are out, people are *definitely* either dead or dying; even if the PTT has no official status as such.

The bottom line is, given the choice of moving for a possibility or a certainty, Thais would rather move for a certainty.
comment 20
catch22 date : 12/05/2008 time : 11.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

....Yawn.....Makube your bullshit response is too ridiculous to waste time on....bye.
comment 19
Ian date : 12/05/2008 time : 10.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

In London the police can manually override the traffic lights from a central control and create a clear run for an emergency vehicle, the vehicle is tracked by gps and radio contact.
comment 18
GGrass date : 12/05/2008 time : 08.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

MakubeX: Why try to cover Thais' a$$?

The reality is, Thais don't move their cars if an ambulance is behind them. Hoever, they tend to move, if it's a 'po tek tueng' pick up truck.

Makubex, you can excuse them anyway you like, but I've taken the ambulance ride, with my father dying inside. And nobody moved.

So don't nobody tell me they 'try to move but they can't' bullshit.
comment 17
MakubeX date : 12/05/2008 time : 01.46
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

"Sorry Thai guys and gals - but that really is near the truth here isn't it? And one day it could be YOU, your parent or child in that ambulance!!"

My, my...what bitterness. What did the Thais ever do to you?

"I agree than in London it can simply be impossible to pull over, but I'm sure people try."

...which puts you in the same position as most people in Thai cities regardless of whether they're Thai or not; except in most Thai cities you have to deal with motorbikes and various other home-built vehicles on the inside lane as well. So by pulling over, you might actually be adding to the casualties.

As a side note, the ambulance system in Thailand is very different from those in the Western countries. For a start they're run on a private basis by the hospitals; as such they have no "official" status. As a rule, Thais won't rely on ambulances *especially* if it's an emergency, wise considering the traffic (why do you think so many babies are delivered in taxis?). Thus, they're mainly used for the transfer of in-patients who're already stabilised and aren't in any real danger if the ambulance gets stuck in traffic.

The nearest thing to a "proper" ambulance service is probably the Por Tek Teung Foundation, but they're better known for delivering dead bodies to morgues and arranging funerals for "relativeless" bodies rather than taking care of the injured. But again, this organisation is "unofficial" in nature.

Thais by nature are very practical. It's just that some foreigners don't know the circumstances and think that everything should be like at "home," which begs the question as to why they left "home" at all?

As for the royal family in Thailand, it has been known in the past for some members of the family to divert their route to help out in the emergency...that was how one member of the extended family died about 30 years ago in the helicopter actually.
comment 16
Ian date : 11/05/2008 time : 17.28
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

The latest comments raises an interesting question, in Thailand who has priority, a member of the Royal family or an ambulance or fire engine on an emergency call?
To be honest I'm not sure what the answer to this question would be in England, but my gut feeling is that the police escort would seek a solution that satisfied both needs.
comment 15
catch22 date : 11/05/2008 time : 15.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

Ian - In London it is so congested...BUT... most people make a really desperate effort to give as much room as they possibly can when they hear a siren and stop if possible.

Here, they wouldn't hear a siren if it were playing inside their car..... what with the stereo and mobile, plus daydreaming about kin kaaw when they get home.

Sorry Thai guys and gals - but that really is near the truth here isn't it? And one day it could be YOU, your parent or child in that ambulance!!
comment 14
Ian date : 11/05/2008 time : 09.32
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Makube, I may well be out of touch with London but in the suburbs where I live and drive we still pull over and give right of way to ambulances with their sirens on.
I agree than in London it can simply be impossible to pull over, but I'm sure people try.
comment 13
wch date : 11/05/2008 time : 07.06

In this Isan, bunch of local political thugs ride motorcade like a Roman emperor.
comment 12
Pomjuk date : 10/05/2008 time : 21.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

Talk about London, I was surprised to see motorcyclists ride between lanes in London. That was absolutely illegal in the US. Although, I did that myself a few times in NY, one time was because my Triumph Trophy was overheated in the heat of summer, so I had to run as fast as I could to the nearest exit. The other time I was sitting in a standstill traffic less than a mile from my exit so I just sneaked my fat ass VTX1800 between lanes watching people condemn me with their eyes right to my exit.
comment 11
MakubeX date : 10/05/2008 time : 20.55
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

"Thais lack the discipline of the British."

Obviously you haven't been back recently then...
comment 10
Ian date : 10/05/2008 time : 20.40
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Makube, so basically it is the authorities covering their arse?
I still think the British way is simpler, 4 police motorbikes in front and 4 behind which create a moving open space in which the Royal car moves.
However, having seen an ambulance trying to move through Bangkok perhaps the Thai way is best in Thailand. Thais lack the discipline of the British.
comment 9
MakubeX date : 10/05/2008 time : 19.43
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/babylon

I have a feeling that it's more the local authorities that are more in fear, especially if the royals were coming on an official visit. For example, if the Princess or some other member of the royal family were to be driving by herself and if she crashes into something (or perhaps more likely, somebody crashes into her), awkward questions along the lines of "You knew she was coming, why didn't you do more to protect her?" or "It was an official visit, so where were the arrangements for it?"

At best, the person in charge would be transferred to an inactive post (apparently a fate worse than death in the Thai cs) and at worst be lynched by the patriotic mob. So most officials would just bypass the problem altogether by making sure that absolutely nothing can go wrong, even if that means inconveniencing other people.

That said, some of the royals have been known to travel by themselves or in cognito, but these would be in their unofficial capacities and so local authorities won't be held responsible if anything goes wrong.

A helicopter would be more convenient, but the authorities tend to try and avoid using them if they can. They have a rather dubious safety record in Thailand, are more vulnerable to gunfire (and not very easy to recover from if things go wrong), not to mention the bad memories from 1977.

So in answer to your question; the Royal Family fears nothing but the authorities fear taking responsibility for them.
comment 8
catch22 date : 10/05/2008 time : 17.01
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/catch22

They were probably all dummy cars and the Princess went the other way.

The King has time and time again said he disagrees with a lot of this..... well what can we call it?........???

But his cronies won't set him free and let him be human, be the brilliant man he is and let us remember him as the brilliant young scholar and innovative person he was in America.

He is revered in many countries and he deserves nothing less in his twilite years....he has been a great King
THAILAND......LET HIM BE HUMAN FOR A WHILE!!
comment 7
Lalida date : 10/05/2008 time : 15.57
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

I guess is no difference in any part of the world and I see a majority of people who is also against it. As many say, it causes inconvinences to many people.

Anyone knows why our King hardly comes out unless it's necessary? He did mentioned once before long time ago that he didn't want to cause more traffic problems with the already congested traffic problems in our country.
comment 6
Ian date : 10/05/2008 time : 15.45
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Pomjuk, now that is an excellent idea, why does not the palace have a Royal helicopter? Quicker, safer (assuming no terrorists around with ground to air missiles) and causing no traffic disruption.

If nothing else the government should pass a law that taxis turn of their meters whilst we are waiting in a stationary queue.
comment 5
Poomjai date : 10/05/2008 time : 14.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/poomjai

Pomjuk,

I understand that it is not uncommon for some airports in Thailand to be temporarily closed to flying practice to take place.... Far more disruptive than landing a chinook in a field in Hampshire.
comment 4
Pomjuk date : 10/05/2008 time : 14.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/pomjuk

If only our princesses could fly helicopter like your prince William traffic in Bangkok and all around town would have been better. So thank your prince for flying the big military helicopter to his girlfriend’s house and everywhere else. Way to go your royal highness!
comment 3
whatdaheck date : 10/05/2008 time : 11.47
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/JuNh

Living in Pattaya, I sometimes see these Royal Marching, and made me wonder, how long and how many of policemen are required to have the Marching not to stop from Bkk to PTY.... hummm....for them to stand for hour.... tax payers money... hummm...

But it's Oh-Key becuz, they are Royals.
Accept and don't ask...
comment 2
GGrass date : 10/05/2008 time : 11.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/GGrass

It's for visual effect... to look grand and impressive.

And it does look very impressive...
comment 1
Manhunt date : 10/05/2008 time : 11.38

Ian - They probably pulled your legs about the dummy cars. Perhaps more Royal family members were in the entourage and you definitely couldn't guess which one the princess sat in. This was what my source told me.
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