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Saturday , November 21 , 2009
The Conflict of Values and the Role of Intellectuals in China today
Posted by Al , Reader : 174 , 17:45:16  
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''Today we can realize three traditions in China. One of them is the tradition, which developed in the last 28 years.... in this tradition the market economy plays the dominant role... it encloses a lot of concepts about individual rights and freedom, too. Another tradition was developed during the era of Mao Zedong. Its most essential aspect was the quest for equality and justice. The third tradition was formed thousands of years ago in the course of the development of the Chinese civilisation. Nowadays this tradition is called Confucianism. In the past we often got the impression that these three traditions are standing in contradiction to each other. In fact, they don't.'' (Gan Yang)

Gan Yuang's statement points out a quite essential aspect of the social dynamics of today's China. In my last blog ''Was Confucius wrong? What is the truth for you?'' I cited one of Confucius' verses which shows how the traditional Chinese thinking was handling conflicts of values. In this entry I explained the background of Confucius' decision to regard filial piety as a higher value than the truth about a fact. Seen with Western eyes this decision is more than surprising, because it opens all doors for being abused for any human interests. In that context it doesn't help much that Confucius was restricting his valuation to a specified case. The human being is a creature which is able to think – but only exceptionally.

In contrast to that the development in the West was strongly dominated by studies about the conditions under which perception and knowledge is possible. From the earliest beginnings during the early times of ancient Greece the dominating question was: How are we able to percept and to know something? From the earliest beginning the Western culture successively developed to a ''culture of questioning''. The answers to these questions were unknown. But the way of questioning was developed to find or at least to approach the answers.

This is totally different to China. Here we have a ''culture of answers''. The questions and methods to answer them have never been in the focus of Chinese thinking. The answers are given already before the methods to investigate them were elaborated. This is like you would try to solve a mathematical equation not by algebraic transformations but by claiming the result.

How can we understand this?

Of the ancient world's major cultures, Chinese culture differs not only in this aspect markedly from the Greece culture. The development of the Greece culture was closely related to the ocean. With the ocean as its backdrop, Athens and other Greece cities and colonies formed an industrial and commercial culture and city-state civilization that were open to the rest of the world never stopping absorbing the fruits of civilization from surrounding regions. Traditional Chinese culture however was influenced by a relatively closed geographical environment. The Chinese culture evolved gradually into an isolated and continuous continental culture with patriarchal or feudal character. For short we can state: In the development of the Chinese culture the exchange with other cultures, with new ideas and thoughts was extremely restricted. If you doubt this then have a closer look at the long times the Indian Buddhism needed to find ground in the Chinese culture and to what extends this original Buddhism was changed in this process. The Chinese culture was an isolated culture – while the Greece cultures were permanently in conflict between each other and with other ideas coming from outside.

It should be clear that this couldn't work well for all times. One day there was the contact to the West – and with this contact the problems arose. But don't let us look at the historical details of that time now. Let us look at today's China. China is huge and powerful country which has the strong will to develop and to lead. Under no circumstances China will accept to maintain in the old backwardness due to old traditions. But due to its tradition China has the surprising ability to combine contradictions. Seen with western eyes it's hard to understand how Confucian, Marxist and capitalistic ideas can be combined. Confucius was a clear Anti-capitalist. Marx was an Anti-capitalist. And Confucius and Marxism are absolutely not compatible. But in China – this doesn't matter!

From my point of view I have just one explanation for this phenomenon: China never developed a methodology in rational analysis. This makes it easy to accept contradictions..... but.... it makes it hard to find out the facts! If you are lead by your interests – then you are blinded by your interest.

This is the crux of the present development in China. China wants to lead and she wants to develop. But this development needs other instruments than those offered by the old Confucian tradition. It needs what is strange in many Asian cultures until now: a sharp analytical mind. It needs openness to the variety of all possible answers. It needs a culture of critics. It needs a culture of questioning! China will not allow any traditionalists to push her back to the times of the ''culture of answers''.

I am not sure in how far it is obvious for you already now: China is in a process of extreme changes. It was not Deng Xiaoping who opened China for the capitalism. It were the intellectuals - the ''free thinkers'' behind him. It were not narrow-minded hangers-on of the Marxist ideology who opened this country. It were people of the think-tanks behind. These intellectuals are today the leaders of China. Since about 3 decades the power of the Chinese intellectuals is continuously growing. Meanwhile the intellectuals form the most influential group in this country lacking any political opposition, any independent union and any public political discussion!

But... as usual there is a big 'but'.... can this last? Can analytical thinking be restricted to the laboratories and universities? Inside you are allowed to think – outside not? Behind the doors of the universities and laboratories you are allowed to practice a ''culture of questioning'' and outside you have to keep quiet?

I would say: No! This might work for a while – but not for all times. It is not surprising that all progress in political questions has its origin within intellectuals. It is not surprising that everywhere (with exception of today's Thailand) movements for democracy have their origin within students and university staff. The engine for any positive political change are the think-tanks where people are allowed to practice unlimited thinking.

Seen from that point I am expecting that China will become the driving engine for incisive political changes in East-Asia. The development will overtake some countries who are trying hard to conserve a backward way of thinking. It is possible that there is a day coming when the leaders of these countries will wake up with the same surprise as the East German leader Erich Honecker did when Gorbatschow told him: ''Who is coming too late – that one will be punished by the life.“




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comment 16
Al date : 23/11/2009 time : 17.44
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/albert

Thanks, Alien,
this is a problem arising with the enforced loss of traditional values. In the West many people would say that they aren't religious anymore - but the most are still keeping up the main values. But worldwide there seems to be an increasing trend to take advantage for the personal fortune at any cost. I would like to know how Asians see that.
comment 15
Al date : 23/11/2009 time : 17.25
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/albert

Peacefulness,
I explained my mistake. Why are you trying to misunderstand it and to take advantage of it? You are really someone Confucius would call ''Xiao Ren'' (small man)
comment 14
Alien date : 23/11/2009 time : 15.04
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/alien

While there are sililarities, I think (and I hope I'm right) that the Thai people don't spy on each other any where near as the Chinese do!
comment 13
panya date : 22/11/2009 time : 19.19
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Alien C10

No ethics, lack of moral foundation, colleagues spying on each other, corruption by the quest for personal fortune at any cost - this sounds like a critique of a Thai government !

..(but it's no joke)
comment 12
peacefulness date : 22/11/2009 time : 11.40
nationmultimedia.com


pics, chairman mao zedong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong
comment 11
peacefulness date : 22/11/2009 time : 08.58
nationmultimedia.com


hey AL "the fxxkg fxxk"--- why don't you just fcukoff and go to hell or commit sucide by "harakiri ritual" to wash out all your shames/disgraces in the blogsite ...........AL an everlasting fxxking hyprocrite........

you wrote "[Another tradition was developed during the era of Mao Zedong. Her most essential aspect was her quest for equality and justice. ]

YOU even don't know who is chairman mao zedong, and the gender of chairman Mao. You never touch the history book of china..........You hv zero knowledge of mstr confucius before..........same like bitch chrity sweet does not know who is pres. hu jin tao in grass blog....all the fucking plonkers.

You just do some googles and write about china/confucius/taoism.......etc.... what a sonofthebitch!!!!!!!

lastly, I wish khun Mobidick to exercise his excellent cantonese profanity to you. hahahaha......
comment 10
Alien date : 22/11/2009 time : 08.22
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/alien

I read a book titled "The China Question." It was almost like a memoir of the first white person allowed to go and live in China and attend graduate school there. He later worked for the Associated Press or United Press International and then moved to The Washington Post in the Asian Bureau. He was in China during the Tiannamen Square incident and at one time was banned from China due to reporting things they didn't appreciate. He claimed that the problem in China is that there were no ethics. One of his premises is that the communist government eliminated all moral and ethical foundations when they persuecuted religions, old philosophies and traditional chinese ways such as ancestor worship. The moral underpinnings weer gone or vastly diminished. One of his graduate school room-mates parents deonunced another room-mates parents during the cultural revolution. He also states that room-mates wee spying on each other. The goal for alot of them was to get into the communist party as this would almost assure a better life. He ties these together, along with alot of personal experiences while in China, to explain why when capitalism trickled in, the necessary ethics wee missing. One of the communist saying in the recent past was "To be rich is glorius." These factors have led to great corruption in government and in industry. "TO BE RICH IS GLORIUS." Does this say it all? The author contends that these factors also led to all of the product bastardization, such as the contaminated toothpaste, pet food, powdered milk, etc., etc. The country is corrupted by the quest for personal fortune at any cost. It does pay off for the minority of them who are then idolized by the mahjority. An article I saw about a year ago stated that the Chinese have more new millionaires than any other country. There is a high cost for this.
comment 9
Al date : 22/11/2009 time : 04.54
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/albert

Mobydick,
so, now I've time to reply. Sorry, I was absent for a while and your comment is listing several points I was not able to answer in a few minutes.

1.[Mao Zedong was he,not she.]

Yes, sure.... the personal pronoun should be related to 'tradition' – but it's wrong. I corrected it meanwhile. I am never sure about the personal gender of things in English. Sorry, my mistake. I am writing too fast. Sorry.

2.[What you cited in your last blog was legality vs. morality. It was morally wrong in ancient China (or even in modern China) for a son to indict his father.]

I think there is no real difference between your and my point. Legality was demanding the strict application of laws to the facts of a case. But for Confucius another value was more important. For him the objective facts have to take second place behind filial piety.

3.[What Confucius taught was a kind of political science and personal philosophy.]

I agree. But this doesn't contradict my point, isn't it?

[If you want to ask questions,you can study Taoism.]

I cannot see that the Taoism developed a kind of rational epistemology.

But interesting in that context is that the Mohists rudimentally developed a kind of epistemology by their ''School of Names'' which focussed on testing the truth or falsehood of statements. Mo Di believed that people were able to change the circumstances of their lives by applying their senses to observing the world, judging objects and events by their causes, their function, and their historical basis. This was called the "three-prong method" and sounds surprisingly 'Greek' to me. But the importance of Mohism declined when Confucianism became the dominant school during the Han Dynasty and finally disappeared during the middle of the Western Han Dynasty.

4.[Chinese intellectuals studied capitalism and socialism long time ago about 2,000 years ago]

I am not doubting that within such along time there have been some people thinking about their economical conditions. But I am sceptical that this can be brought into context with the Marxism of the 20th century. But even so – would it prove that Confucius or the Confucianism are compatible to the ideas of Marxism? I still can see essential differences between both ways of thinking.

More interesting in that context appears to me your quote. I was often thinking that the PRC was in need of a justification for the Renaissance of Confucius after decades of downgrading and harsh critiques of Confucius' ideas. Can this text and his recent recension be seen in the context of these efforts?

[So if you only know Confucianism,then you don't know Chinese philosophy well.]

You are right: without knowing these 9 and the others of the so-called hundred schools I cannot claim to know the Chinese philosophy. In fact I don't know Chinese philosophy. I am just an interested outsider.

Last but not least I want to thank you again for your contribution. I think your critique is very valuable for me. With your contributions you helped me more than anybody else to learn more about this complicated but very interesting subject. As the next point I would like to focus more onto the process of the acceptance of Buddhism in China. It was a long-term process with many changes. Also Taoism plays a major role in this context. I really want to visit China to get an impression of all these places where Confucius, Mo Di, Menzius and Lao Tzu were living.
comment 8
Al date : 22/11/2009 time : 03.33
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/albert

Sorry, Plaadip,
I don't disdain anything or anyone in that context. But I find it interesting to understand the development of human ideas. In addition to that I cannot see that Confucius is unimportant today. Confucius' central point was the idea of self-cultivation. Can you think that this is obsolete today? I just can see that his ideas to that point are more relevant than ever.

And I want to add that I don't intent to instigate anybody. I find Peacefulness' contributions disturbing and I am happy if he stays off.
comment 7
Plaadip date : 21/11/2009 time : 23.29

Al, maybe you should stop this Confucianism saga if your purpose is only to instigate Peacefulness or others. Waste of time. Who is going to apply those theory created more than 2000 years ago literally other than those Jew, Christatian and Islam fundamentlists. Most of Asians share your "deep disdain" on this type of people, if you would have it.
comment 6
Al date : 21/11/2009 time : 23.13
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/albert

Thanks, Mobydick,
pls allow me to reply later.
comment 5
Al date : 21/11/2009 time : 23.12
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/albert

Plaadip, c4
I am reading your comment with interest....
ok... I just like to know if also other Asians share your point...
comment 4
Plaadip date : 21/11/2009 time : 22.57

Sorry, I meant, (how often I used this phrase!) my Koraen friend said that I can't take care of my parents, simply because I can't do it (financially). Should they demand the 'welfare state" idea to the "totalitarian government"? I don't think it will be the immidiate answer to his problem.(And that's my problem, too.) He is just ripped apart betwenn his ethical feeling and financial reality. Can you say that he is stupid that he is still worshipping the old idea, so he can't be happy? I don't think so. Because the Confucianism is somehow reflecting the universal feeling of human being as Jewdaism or Christinaism do. (They are outdated as much as reflecting universal feeling of human being) So why do we base the principal of our life on that, dispite of the flaws? Because that's ours. And do we(christians, jews or contemporary asians) not selective in applying the teachings to our real life? Of course answer is yes other than those foolish fundamentalists.
comment 3
Plaadip date : 21/11/2009 time : 22.28

Most contemporary issue around our belief (residuum) of Confucianism is how to take care of our parents. One of my Korean friends once said that I gave it up, because I simply can do it. I also felt guitly of my fully not executing my duty for my mother. It's a very painful for us, probably because we still belive that we still think that we have to take care of our parents. But do you not feel the same guilt if you are away from your parents and your mom is not well off, or get sick, and you cannot be with her? The Confucianism seems out of date but it's out of date in the same way as Jewdaism or Chirtianity is out of date for the contemporary human. If you don't understand this point, you are not an intellectual.
comment 2
Mobydick date : 21/11/2009 time : 20.55

Al,some of your points are interesting but arguable.

1. [Another tradition was developed during the era of Mao Zedong. Her most essential aspect was her quest for equality and justice. ]
Mao Zedong was he,not she.

2. [ In my last blog ''Was Confucius wrong? What is the truth for you?'' I cited one of Confucius' verses which shows how the traditional Chinese thinking was handling conflicts of values.]
What you cited in your last blog was legality vs. morality.It was morally wrong in ancient China (or even in modern China) for a son to indict his father.

3. [From the earliest beginning the Western culture successively developed to a ''culture of questioning''. The answers to these questions were unknown. But the way of questioning was developed to find or at least to approach the answers. ]
What Confucius taught was a kind of political science and personal philosophy.If you want to ask questions,you can study Taoism.

4. [Marx was an Anti-capitalist. And Confucius and Marxism are absolutely not compatible.]
Chinese intellectuals studied capitalism and socialism long time ago (about 2,000 years ago).

大同與小康
Primary and secondary societies

大同和小康,是兩種不相同的社會制度。儒家認為,在大同世界裡,人們都不會將物資據為己有,反而怕自己為社會出力不夠;老人、小孩、寡婦、鰥夫和傷殘的人都可以得到供養,人民生活無休。而小康社會裡,人們都只會為自己出力,將物資據霸佔,並且出現了階級的差別。

Translated by Mobydick:

Capitalism and socialism are two different kinds of social system.Confucian scholars thought,in a socialist society,people would not occupy assets.On the contrary,they would fear that they had not done enough for their society.Old men,children,divorced spouses and the disabled should be assisted for living,therefore they can live without worries.In a capitalist society,people would only strive for their own well being.They would occupy assets,and consequently different classes would exist.

Traditonally speaking,there are nine schools of thought in Chinese philosopy.Confucian teaching is only one of them.There are also 儒家Confucianism 、道家Daoism、陰陽家 Naturalists、法家Legalism、名家Logicians、墨家Mohism、縱橫家Diplomacy 、雜家Miscellaneous、農家Agriculture.So if you only know Confucianism,then you don't know Chinese philosophy well.
comment 1
panya date : 21/11/2009 time : 18.14
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/diversion

Yes, I agree
.
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