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Thai Talk

Analysis and comments on political and current affairs
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ThaiTalk

Posted by Yoon , Reader : 5215 , 08:13:56  
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These pictures from photographers on the scene yesterday show that some policemen sent to disperse protestors in front of Parliament House were armed with hand grenades, and not only tear-gas cannisters as claimed by the police chief. In fact, when at least four victims among over 400 injured were found with mutilated legs, it was clear that police were  told to "do whatever you have to" to clear the way for the MPs and senators to enter the Parliament so that Premier Somchai Wongsawat could deliver his policy speech.

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comment 175 www.antithaksin.com date : 03/11/2008 time : 02.05 www.antithaksin.com

National Human Rights Committee's Press Release Point to Somchai's Responsible for October 7, 08 report by subcommittee No.1 October 17. 08 http://www.antithaksin.com/086_Human_Rights.html report by subcommittee No.1 October 24. 08 http://www.antithaksin.com/086_Human_Rights_2.html

comment 174 Plaadip date : 29/10/2008 time : 12.04

The closing statement(almost) from Today's Nation INITIAL OCT 7 FINDINGS PM, Chavalit 'responsible' By The Nation Published on October 29, 2008 Initial findings by a National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) panel have pointed the finger at Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat and Chavalit Yongchaiyudh over the huge casualties on October 7, an informed source said yesterday. The source said that, based on senior officials' statements, the panel headed by Surasee Kosolnawin, had concluded that Somchai and Chavalit should be held responsible. Chavalit served as a deputy prime minister in the Somchai-led government until October 7, which saw bloody clashes between police and People's Alliance for Democracy demonstrators. Soon after police hurled tear gas into PAD crowds in front of the Parliament House on the morning of October 7, hundreds of PAD demonstrators were hospitalised. Many lost limbs. The shocking dispersal led to more confrontations between PAD supporters and police later in the day. In the end, the incidents claimed two lives and injured more than 400 victims. Police officers were among the injured. Surasee reported his panel's findings to the NHRC yesterday, concluding that the huge casualties were a result of police use of tear gas. He said Somchai and Chavalit must therefore take the blame for ordering the dispersal of the PAD crowds. The NHRC yesterday decided not to conclude its investigation into the October 7 based on these initial findings. "The NHRC has not yet issued a conclusion on the case," its chairman Saneh Chamarik said. "We only have initial findings and are in the process of gathering more information." Saneh said the commission would wait to hear from Somchai and National Police commissioner General Patcharawat Wongsuwan first. Surasee's panel is gathering additional information. According to Surasee, Somchai has asked to submit a written statement instead of coming in to give information in person. "We will be looking forward to his statement," he said. Another source, meanwhile, said Chavalit had agreed to come before the NHRC. In a related development, the PAD yesterday lodged an official complaint against deputy police spokesman Maj-General Surapon Tuantong for defaming Angkhana Radabpanyawoot, who died during the October 7 clashes. PAD lawyer Suwat Apaipak filed the complaint on behalf of Angkhana's mother, who was also injured in the incident. Soon after Angkhana died, Surapon held press conferences suggesting that the victim had succumbed to injuries caused by a bomb she was carrying. He was quoted in the press as saying, "The wound on her body was too severe to have been inflicted by any weapon the police were using." However, evidence later showed that Angkhana had died of the Chinese-made tear gas used by the police. Suwat said Surapon's statement could have led people to believe that Angkhana was a troublemaker who was carrying a weapon in public places. "His words are tantamount to abuse of authority, because he was speaking to the media in the capacity of deputy police spokesman," an affidavit from the lawyer said. The Criminal Court will hear the case on December 29.

comment 173 www.antithaksin.com date : 26/10/2008 time : 22.20 www.antithaksin.com

National Human Rights Committee's Press Release of the report by subcommittee No.1 answers WHO must be responsible for WHO at http://www.antithaksin.com/086_Human_Rights.html

comment 172 TerryK date : 22/10/2008 time : 07.43

I agree that someone should be made responsible for WHO? I am not siding with any party but I have a few thoughts. Can the PAD leaders be held accountable for individuals who "disobeyed" instructions and use firearms? The same verdict should apply if individual police uses weapons that is not the standard equipment/weapons used in the crackdown. Using of teargas to disperse crowd is standard acceptable methods. Thus the commander cannot be penalise for it. If the teargas use is substandard than the producer of it or the purchasing officier/committee should be made responsible.

comment 171 Ian date : 17/10/2008 time : 10.23 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, this is the land of ripped off videos, Thais are probably even more advanced than the Chinese in this area. With modern technology it is easy to cut and patch or digitally edit any video. I tend to believe only what I see in real time, anything recorded is potentially suspect.

comment 170 Chris-TH date : 17/10/2008 time : 09.02

The last picture is also quite interesting. Hopefully this is not the condition of arms in the Thai Police arsenal. What I mean, just look at the rusty clip. The handgrenade that I remember from my time was very neatly painted in a green color

comment 169 rad date : 17/10/2008 time : 08.54

Ian, I think I just received and watched a copy of a video put together by PAD. I say I think because I was not able to question the person who dropped it off. Very graphic contents, probably won't change anyone's mind but it is telling non the less. Ask around, the first two segment run about 34 minutes the 3rd about 9.

comment 168 Ian date : 17/10/2008 time : 08.43 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Chris, exactly so in a well run organisation. In England The policeman signs for his weapon and ammunition, and when he returns it has to account for the ammunition used. As I understand it in Thailand the police here often have to buy their own weapons and ammunition. I get the impression that along the borders, in the rural farming areas and in the South, all sorts of weapons are easily available.

comment 167 Chris-TH date : 17/10/2008 time : 08.09

I fail to understand why everybody talk about "cheap chinese" teargas. A simple search on Internet reveals that there are two general types of teargas ammunition: Riot control and assult. Riot control ammunition is low muzzle speed and aerosol based, assult ammunition is high muzzle speed and explosive. The assult type is designed for closed confinements like rooms and are able to penetrate windows and thin walls/doors. The explosion is designed to add a stun effect to the assult. That type of teargas is used by military and Special Branch Police to clear buildings and in cases of, e.g., hostage situations. The question is why/how this type was issued to the riot police? You can in fact see on the pictures that both types were used (green plastic for riot and the Alu cased for assult). Teargas is not standard issue so requisitions are required to obtain it from the armory. Would be interresting to see who signed those requisitions. Or.. is it a case of lack of knowledge of the kind of ammunition that they have in stock? For speculations of why it happened I have my own opinion based on motives and benefits, but I'll keep that opinion for myself.

comment 166 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 20.00

Ian, Not to worry, I don't often get upset, too hot here for that.

comment 165 Ian date : 16/10/2008 time : 19.44 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, plaadip provides the perfect example, two spelling mistakes but no problem understanding him-) Now with wch I feel he often uses the totally wrong word, and try as I might I cannot work out what he intended. I also often find my brain trips over my fingers, this is why I always read back over my comment before I press "send". Even then I sometimes make mistakes. Yet read comment 1 in this blog, I can just about understand it, in doing so I find it complete fantasy. I'm sorry if this upsets you, he may be knowledgeable but he is also given to wild flights of fantasy.

comment 164 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 19.28

Plaadip, Thanks. It Is "cut some slack" and I will try harder. Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. Ian, I think wch, is one of those people whose minds works a lot faster than this typing skills.

comment 163 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 19.22

Ian, That is often the case, their testimony is weighted like all opposing testimony. We have one state that uses the French system, however, it is still innocent until proven guilty.

comment 162 Plaadip date : 16/10/2008 time : 18.43

I agree with rad. His posting has imformation, so I like to read them. Please cut slock on our English. You see. I just check the ideom "cut slock on" in my computer dictionary.

comment 161 Ian date : 16/10/2008 time : 18.17 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, I would probably discount him less if I could understand him better. I am aware from the few times that I have understood him that he indeed has a wealth of knowledge. It is a shame that he is not prepared to improve his English to the point where it can be understood. I am not a perfectionist, I can accept much garbled English and make sense of it, but he regularly defeats me. Regarding judicial systems, I am not an expert on the American system, but going by a few films I have seen, your system is closer to the French system, it is more adversarial. In fact I think your judges in their powers are more like our coroners. What would your judge do if there are experts on both sides with opposed views/opinions?

comment 160 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 15.26

Ian, I know you discount wch, but I have had experience with him before and he has a wealth of information to offer. And the spectrum is wide from farming to world events. He has family stories that are priceless. Plus he has a sense of humor.

comment 159 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 15.20

Ian, Your system must differ, in the US the judge takes the prospective expert voir dire, once he is satisfied that the person is an expert, the jury, if there is one, is allowed to hear the testimony of the expert witness. It could be a prosecution or defense witness, rules are the same. If it were say, a balistics expert he would testify on that limited expertise. Judges in the US are proactive they are triers of fact, they ask questions and get involved when they are unclear or need to have clarification for the jury. The bloody knife is used to implicate a suspect but is not needed to determine the cause of death. Remember we are still dealing with reasonable doubt. To create doubt you need a reasonable counter explanation. There are cases where murder has been proven without a body.

comment 158 Ian date : 16/10/2008 time : 14.57 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, "wch mentioned that the doctors found assorted things in victims", he is given to unsubstantiated flights of fantasy. Call the next witness In a court, under cross examination, an expert witness may be indeed asked for an opinion. It is the duty of the judge to remind the jury that this is in fact an opinion, not a verifiable fact. Now if the prosecution can produce a bloody knife and the blood on the knife is a DNA match for the victim's blood, that is a different matter altogether.

comment 157 Plaadip date : 16/10/2008 time : 14.30

http://www.readbangkokpost.com/generalnews/ This BPost reports has some pictures of the test results. Maybe you already read this. Actually, teargas hand grenade made in China is more powerful in explosion. That created 16centi wide, 5-8 cent deep whole on its explosion. 3c deep, 8cent wide hole was that of teargas canister. Sorry for the mistake as always.

comment 156 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 13.43

Ian, wch mentioned that the doctors found assorted things in victims, you guys have a name for that, when they stuff whatever was available into canons? In the US courts, if one can quailify as an expert, they will then be allowed to offer opinions limited to the scope of their expertise. Experts are used frequently in court cases. US police would be more inclined to say sharp object or alleged to have committed, phrases. In testimony the expert would paint a word picture that left little doubt as to the weapon being a knife, the defense could challenge but would need a really good alternate explanation or would score points for the prosecution. Doubt is good but, there needs to be a basis to support it.

comment 155 Ian date : 16/10/2008 time : 12.36 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, we may be at cross purposes, my comment about date stones was an endorsement of your "ferret" with its special plastic nose. However, this means that not only were there two types of police, border and regular, there were also three types of tear gas cartridges, normal, Chinese and modified. By modified I mean the original payload had been replaced with key rings and other bits of scrap metal. So are you suggesting that in the heat of events some police took out their clasp knives and modified these shells, or even worse did so before hand. Do we have any pictures of wounds with imbedded key rings? A forensic scientist is tasked with finding facts, not to speculate. In my country a forensics expert would never say, the victim died of knive wounds, they would say the victim died of injuries from a sharp object. It is up to the detectives to speculate that it was a knife. This is Thailand perhaps the rules are different, in my country speculation is inadmissible in court.

comment 154 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 11.46

Ian, Regarding the blanks, that is a story that we have already heard, remember the key chains etc. that were added to the projectiles. I didn't read anything of hers that matches what you are saying, I guess I missed it. So can you give me a link or what it was she said?

comment 153 Ian date : 16/10/2008 time : 11.37 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, on training exercises we were given blanks, we were also given "iron rations", this always included unstoned dates. We discovered that if you removed the cardboard from the blank and replaced it with a date stone it became an effective weapon. We soon augmented our hard rations with roasted rabbit. A hurricane can drive a straw through a plank of wood. It is all a question of mass, velocity (and hence energy), versus the hardess of the objects and the coefficient of restitution. Pornthip is a medical scientist, is she also a physicist, if not she seems to be blending facts with suppositions. Yes this is the normal Thai approach

comment 152 rad date : 16/10/2008 time : 08.07

Ian, Have no idea of the relevance of this, but SUVs don’t have boots, just a door in the back with a window. The doors are usually single ply with a web of reinforcing members that cover a large portion of the door making most, but not all double layered. I mentioned the ferret as an example of penetrating a car door or window as not being a difficult thing. As for the tank exploding, there have been several around Bangkok, probably faulty installations. The guy could have lit a cigarette, had it of been tear gas there would probably be a lot of residue left, making it easy to check. That is of course if anyone wanted to. Lalida, Assumptions are about all you are going to get, facts are impossible, the people providing them are going to be suspected of being bias by who ever disagrees with them.

comment 151 Ian date : 16/10/2008 time : 08.01 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Plaadip, comment 150. You are asking the wrong question, you should ask why was he killed. In any murder investigation if you can establish the motive you are half way to solving the crime.

comment 150 Plaadip date : 15/10/2008 time : 22.36

Who killed JFK?

comment 149 Ian date : 15/10/2008 time : 20.34 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, correct me if I'm wrong, I have never examined Thai LPG vehicle installations in detail. But all the ones I have seen the cylinder was in the boot and the boot lid is normally double skinned steel. Ok so there is a US tear gas missile capable of penetrating this, where these used by the police then? I mean was it Chinese tear gas or American "ferrets"? Now you are muddying the waters Another factor, such a cylinder does not actually explode, although that is the normal word applied, to explode it has to be a gas air mixture in the correct ratio, if you have ever seen one "explode" it goes up with a very characteristic fireball.

comment 148 FOS date : 15/10/2008 time : 19.49 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Rad, Sorry my man, is not asumption, assumption and assumption that I wish to hear but facts and evidence.... As for what the Police have admit or deny is only my assumption as well. As what most Bloggers saids, this is Thailand and to find the truth, it will be like looking for a pin in the ocean.

comment 147 rad date : 15/10/2008 time : 19.42

Ian, In the US we have a little 12 guage round called a ferret that will penetrate car doors and windows an it is just a plastic tear gas round. But, the rear of the car, it was a small suv, was burned, while the front seat portion was in better shape, as for steel? whatever the tank is make of is the only protection, hoses and valves are open on the ones I have seen. While the tank would probably withstand the impact of the projectile who is to say what the explosives would do.

comment 146 rad date : 15/10/2008 time : 19.34

Lalida, Here goes, But, I think it will just add to the confusion and maybe be worse for the police. Last month, a simple answer would be that they used US tear gas and ran out of it some time during this event. More complex answer is that the border police used the Chinese stuff and the metro police used the US stuff. Remember back in 06 when there were riots and tear gas was used? Same results as last month. So where has this Chinese stuff been hiding? The guy responsible for housing it said that he handed it al out. No comment about who he handed it to or when, just that he no longer had it. As for the police and choice they have little, remember they first test fired weapons that were not used at the scene, why? Then Dr Death asked them to fire the same stuff as used in the riot and it tested positive with what she found at the scene, hard to deny. So they were surprised. Read my reply to Ian for the car guy. But, it is still a separate issue and a different location. The police have done themselves a great disservice by lying or making stupid, unfounded allegations. If they didn’t do anything wrong or don’t know anything they should have kept their mouths shut. In the end they will have caused themselves more trouble than anyone else.

comment 145 Ian date : 15/10/2008 time : 19.29 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, comment 143 is really scraping the bottom of the barrel if that is the best they can do, have they never heard of triplex glass? Can you name me any vehicle under 20 years old that does not use triplex. Also where is the LPG gas cylinder is it not under a steel cover. Neither do I buy the accidental grenade pin pull unless he did not notice it happened. Otherwise he would have about 4 seconds to get the hell out of there, and then throw himself flat. But we will never know, as I said we are just farangs flapping in the breeze, who listens to us Read any good books lately?

comment 144 rad date : 15/10/2008 time : 19.14

Ian, I was wondering about that yesterday, I saw a picture of the car and was curious. This however, goes to the police type cover up stuff. They first said they found a body with its hand in a pocket as if holding explosives? That was not true. Then within a day or so they had dna results that identified the dead guy? Another report said that he had killed himself when the ring on a grenade hung up on something in the car and boom. So maybe Dr Death will provide the answer.

comment 143 www.antithaksin.com date : 15/10/2008 time : 19.11 www.antithaksin.com

Under this Somchai's brutal direct order for shoot-to-kill and later approval, any weapons which the police used THRICE throughout the day, apart from the clubs and the shields, as seen in photos and VDOS, which could penetrate the wind shield and caused immediate rupture of the LPG tank gas, could cause the explosion, followed by a big flame engulfing the brave PAD security chief. www.antithaksin.com

comment 142 FOS date : 15/10/2008 time : 19.07 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Rad, If you really want my answers which you might disgree....here it goes. I've been trying to find the article which disappear from the Nation's newspage that the Forensic expert Phornthip made which she mentioned "off the record" and the conversation was done privately. She made a comment that triggered my brain to see that she is also siding...... Does it seem to you the Police got any further choice except to agree whatever crticism there is when all arrows are point at them....? Most of all is the incident last month that you mentioned which really makes no sense to me. Ian just made a good point.... No one seemed to give a damn what happen to that guy how he got blew up? Surely not by the Tear Gas and what is he doing in front of the Chart Thai office. Was he holding the Bomb or was the Bomb inside the car? Was there any investigation mentioned? The answer is "NO". How pathetic can it be to mourned a guy who is carrying explosive himself with the intention of comitting a crime......it's already illegal carrying explosive isn't it?

comment 141 Ian date : 15/10/2008 time : 18.32 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, why is everyone ignoring the car that blew up, and killed a senior ex-police security guard? Or is that also the result of a super duper Chinese tear gas shell?

comment 140 rad date : 15/10/2008 time : 18.27

Lalida, I know it is frustrating, the police now agree that the tear gas was the culprit, what is holding you back?

comment 139 FOS date : 15/10/2008 time : 18.04 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

C131 Rad, That is what I'm trying to find out........

comment 138 Ian date : 15/10/2008 time : 16.27 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

plaadip, yes I am watching events.

comment 137 Plaadip date : 15/10/2008 time : 16.00

Ian It had happened alreay. See the Thai-Cambodian border. Best timing for the PM

comment 136 Ian date : 15/10/2008 time : 13.47 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, as you say, it gets more complex the further you dig. However, in the final analysis it is only an interesting intellectual exercise, I am sure no Thai gives a damn about the musings of a couple of old farangs. Basically it will boil down to bad procurement procedures, bad store keeping, bad or zero training, lack of understanding by politicians, lots of finger pointing and accusations, then something else will happen and it will be forgotten.

comment 135 Plaadip date : 15/10/2008 time : 13.01

Sorry, correction. I did not notice that typing was in insert mode. You are still talking about the cause of the casuality. Why? Maybe some kind of live aminition could have been used in the later part of the crackdown as the response to the shooting from PAD side.(maybe) But I think that basic question about the cause of the death and multination has already been solved. Even the police don't oppose it. I think whoever ordered the crackdown, the PM was part of the decision. He should take a political responsibility for what happened. The leagal offence or dicplinary action could be charged later depeding on the finding of whatever committee.

comment 134 Plaadip date : 15/10/2008 time : 12.57

You are still talking about the cause of the casuality. Why? Maybe some sud of live aminition in the later part of the crackdown as the response to the shooting from PAD side.(maybe) But I think that basic question about the cause of the death and multination. Even the police don't oppose it. I think whoever ordered the crackdown, the PM was part of the decision. He should take a political responsibility for what happened. The leagal ofence or dicplinary action could be charged later depeding on the finding of whatever committee.

comment 133 rad date : 15/10/2008 time : 12.41

Ian, In my experience tear gas is used to move crowds, so it is usually fired to land just at the edge of the crowd, in between the crowd and the police. To do that the sight of the gas gun is used and the projectile is arced so as to drop nose down, offering a wide pattern, what you describe looks like it might lead to skipping the canister into the crowd beyond the intended target area and might also cause misfires. The gunners who pointed their weapons at the crowd are either untrained and/or misusing the weapon, in my opinion, unless the cartridge was a direct dispersal type. It gets more complicated the further you dig, some of those launchers are rifled, so like you say the more you know the more you need to know. As for the forensics lady, might want to give her a second look before dismissing her findings. Did you try youtube?

comment 132 Ian date : 15/10/2008 time : 11.22 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, this is the problem for me, I have seen no videos, but then I have held and fired various weapons, the first time I fired a 12-bore shotgun was quite an experience, and I was used to rifles. Another time I fired a 12 bore where the shot had been replaced with a lead ball (highly illegal), damned near tore my shoulder off. Now when you use teargas cartridges it is normal to fire at the ground, as these are ballistic missiles one often would often have to aim high for the cartridge to eventually arrive low. So a picture of a policeman aiming at head height has no real meaning unless you also know the range to the intended target. Do you understand what I mean? Rethinking the forensic report it is too glib, if it is truly the results of Chinese shells, why were there no similar reports from their previous use and from Tibet. Is this forensic expert truly impartial, it seems many hospital doctors are not impartial? The truth is a very rare commodity in Thailand. I need this information, the weight of the cartridge and its muzzle velocity, both are easily measured. One can make a ballistic balance from a piece of string a lump of putty and a ruler. Basically the more "answers" I get the more questions it raises in my mind.

comment 131 rad date : 15/10/2008 time : 10.55

Lalida, I watched a bunch of that stuff as well, nothing was very clear, I saw one policeman fire a shotgun and get knocked on his butt from the recoil. Much of the rest was too fast or unclear. The big problem with not believing the forensic expert is what is the alternative? For sure there were injuries, if not the tear gas, what caused them?

comment 130 rad date : 15/10/2008 time : 10.51

Ian, Sorry about not being clear, Lalida and I were talking about the difference between the US and the Chinese teargas, she said she didn't see any difference in the recoil of any of the tear gas. I said that is because the "extra kick" was in the canister its self. The explosion at the end not the beginning.

comment 129 Ian date : 15/10/2008 time : 07.50 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

comment 127, Sorry rad, I cannot accept that, you are denying the laws of physics. The kick can actually be calculated quite easily, it is simply the weight (mass) of the shell multiplied by its initial acceleration, divided by the mass of the gun. Why do you think mortars are fired from the ground and not from the shoulder? The only missiles which don't produce recoil are rockets.

comment 128 FOS date : 15/10/2008 time : 04.15 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Sorry Rad but I really don't buy that Tear Gas theory anymore when I look back all the pictures and videos I can find on the web.....

comment 127 rad date : 14/10/2008 time : 22.14

Lalida, The kick is in the expolsion at the end of the projectiles flight, not at the beginning, the canister/grenade had explosives in it, not the charge that propelled it.

comment 126 Ian date : 14/10/2008 time : 21.38 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, "Thailand is paying for going on the cheap. ", indeed so, that is the one constant throughout. But who do we blame, the government of 1995 or the present government, or all the governments inbetween as being a party to this? After all any government should know what is sitting in its stores....shouldn't it. But then I remember last year a few thousand tonnes of rice went missing from government stores Which department is responsible for government inventory keeping..... hey, let's blame them, they don't sound important people It keeps coming back to one thing, This is Thailand.

comment 125 FOS date : 14/10/2008 time : 20.40 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Rad and Ian are bringing some iteresting questions that starting to make my brain go upside down again. 1) Ian metioned the kick. The video that I saw, there wasn't much kick back when they fire the shot meaning logically, the fire power is not that strong. 2) Rad mention about the riot last month, no injuries was heard or did anyone complain. the amount of tear gas used in front of the Police headquarter is even closer and about the same as used at the parliament. So, what's going on......?

comment 124 rad date : 14/10/2008 time : 20.25

Ian, Gross negligence is right at the top of the list, and that is a given, if this were a straight forward operation. There were injuries and death, that was a clue about the tactics and the resources deployed. To redeploy the same tactics and resources 10 hours later borders on criminal negligence. They may have even know from last month. As for 303 training, now they probably don't use practice ammo anymore for those very reasons. Training today trys to simulate actual conditions as much as possible. Thailand is paying for going on the cheap. They have riot police, but someone brought in the border police, check history for the answer to that one. They have US stuff, but picked Chinese. I did watch a youtube video where a police fired a shotgun and the recoil knocked him on his butt.

comment 123 Ian date : 14/10/2008 time : 18.05 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, you say strange reasoning, well my reasoning is based on experience. I will explain. In the army soldiers often train with blank ammunition, it is cheaper than live rounds and no one usually gets accidentally hurt. Now in the days of the old Mark4 .303 Lee Enfield rifle, I saw many soldiers the first time they fired live rounds end up with badly bruised and even dislocated shoulders. They had become accustomed to a poor grip with blanks, a live round has easily ten times the "kick" of a blank. It could be the same applies here, I don't know so I extend the benefit of the doubt. Had the police met these sort of rounds before, were they aware of the difference between the different types of tear gas rounds? If I fired what I thought was standard teargas and saw it blow a leg off would I keep on firing? Had they been instructed in the meanings of the colour codes on these rounds? Is there a known difference between the type of rounds issued to the border police and the regular police. Was normal teargas available to the police around parliament. What is the procedure for issuing such tear gas and their launchers. What is standard training, does Thailand have specially trained riot control units like most countries do? When we ask were the police innocent, do we mean the "Force" or the "squaddie"? This is why I reserve judgement. From what I have seen of my local police they are underfunded and under trained, and the events of a few days ago is exactly what happens when you use such people. So to me the real blame lies with the nation, that cannot see the point in having a modern well trained and equiped police force.

comment 122 rad date : 14/10/2008 time : 17.30

Ian, Curious reasoning, I can see an individual officer firing the gas fitting that rational, but as a group they don't seem to. Lack of training, inexperience and ignorance pretty much sustain a charge of gross negligence, they have had the gas for 22 years. Malice could come from the knowledge the police could or should have gained from the number of injuries sustained in the morning dispersal or maybe from the confrontations last month. Plus the fact that the police said that the injuries were self sustained, apparently based only on self preservation or ignorance.

comment 121 Ian date : 14/10/2008 time : 13.06 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

plaadip, thank you, I think I understand most of the Thai thinking now. So basically the next line of enquiry should be did the police knowingly use these Chinese devices? I don't think you should accuse them too hastily, let the investigate continue first.

comment 120 Plaadip date : 14/10/2008 time : 12.03

Sorry for causing confusion. As you know there are many misinfromation plus, my misunderstanding, and my bad English caused it. But basically, the Phornthip said that there were two types of teargas which caused one death and several serious injuries. Those are 1 teargas canister shot by grenade launchers 2 Teargas hand grenades. Both of them are made in China and have RES explosive which could cause serious injuries which we saw on TV. The death of 25 year old woman was caused by the china-made cansiter shot by a grenade launcher. The coroner proved it that the matching of the explosive residuum and the shape of the wound on her chest. The shape of wound is still visible because the canister was not exploded on her chest at the impact, but exploded one second after it hit her chest. She said that there should not be more invetigation on the cause of the death. But about the multinations, she could not prove that what cause the injury, since she could not check the victims immidiately after the incident. So she stopped before concluding the cause of those injury, but she said that china-made teargas, both canister or hand grenade type can cause such damages made on the injured. I saw on TV the test. The hand grenade, which I think is same as the grenade in the picture this page, created a 3 centi deep and 8 cent wide hole on turf. I think that if the grenade explodes by or on you foot, that could blow up your foot, thinking of the mass of the mud which was gouged by the explosion in the test. Police tested a type of canister for the demostration for the press to make them beleive the teargas cansiter is safe on Oct. 8, but turned out later that they did not use the china-made one, even though the dangerous type of teagas canister were used most in the operation accorging to Dr. Phornthip. I personally believe that the Police knows the danger of the china-made one and deliverlately chose the harmless type to decive the publice. About the english report, I don't think there is any, but should I find it somewhere, I will infrom you. I feel very bad about what police did. So I am a little bit pesky on this.

comment 119 Ian date : 14/10/2008 time : 08.36 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

plaadip, with respect, the more you write about the investigations the more confused I get. Whilst it might be exciting to be the first to break the news, it pays to get your thinking clear. You have corrected and altered your comments three times, and this old brain is too tired to sort it all out. Perhaps there might be an official report in English eventually.

comment 118 Plaadip date : 14/10/2008 time : 03.00

Phornthip said that both canisters and hand grenades made in China have the explosive power to cause the injuries we saw on 7 Oct. So the Nation was a little bit uncorrect in the description of the grenade but turned out to be right finally in the sense the grenade in the picture should not be used for the dispurse of the crowds. Cheers

comment 117 Plaadip date : 14/10/2008 time : 01.08

Correction of the previouse posts as always. The test(conducted by the police on 8 Oct) showed that the teargas canister DOES NOT have the power to blow off the limbs on Oct 8. Sorry for the mistake as always. But you see, they used the safer type of teargas canister for demonstration and tried to deceive the press, right? The more disclosed, the more the police attitude looks outrageous.

comment 116 Plaadip date : 14/10/2008 time : 00.59

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/14/politics/politics_30085977.php From Today's Nation On October 8, his division conducted a demonstration of tear-gas canisters and the stock did not seem to have the power to blow off people's limbs. However, many PAD demonstrators had lost fingers, toes, arms and legs when police fired tear gas into them the previous day. "We then found that in another location there was the other type of tear-gas canister. We therefore collected them for testing. Since seeing that such canisters could injure people, we decided to recall and destroy them," Phuwadon said. ********************************** You see. Police conduted a test on the felocity of the tear gas. The test showed the teargas canister has the power to blow off the limbs on 8 Oct. I did not think the Police can be so shameless as to falisiry the test, so this report confused me. But now they said they found another type of teargas canister in anotehr location and recalled it. According to Phorthip, the chinese canister was most used one in the operation, but they could not find it when they tested and showed it to the press on 8 october, before the truth came out. I am sure that the police know it. Of course right?

comment 115 Plaadip date : 14/10/2008 time : 00.26

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/14/politics/politics_30085969.php This is the interesting article about who is behind the case. PAD already got the tape which recorded the cabinet meeting on the night of October 7. The basic line of the coversation is : Somchai gave the authority to Chawalit. Chawalit orderd the chrack down of the demonstrator to the police chief. But he rejected it. So Prime Minsiter Somchai called Deputy Police Chief Damapon( brother in law of Thakisn) . Then he(Damapon)called Start (Thaksin's close freind, Metolopolitan Police Chief) to execute the operation. Maybe Police Chief taped it. I don't think this have any leagal implication, but PAD might disclose it tommorow. Rad About the canister, Phonthip said the china made one explode one seconcd after the hit. I think that's why the wound could still leave its shape on her chest. The canister could explode on impact, if it crash into harder object, so I don't mean pointing out you are wrong.

comment 114 FOS date : 13/10/2008 time : 21.40 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Rad, kop khun na kha...

comment 113 Plaadip date : 13/10/2008 time : 21.04

Yeah myabe. I am not sure about this point. Phornthip seems to have explained it according to the test result, not descrived what actually happened when she was killed. Or, I misunderstood what Phornthip said, because my listening ability of spoken Thai is limited

comment 112 rad date : 13/10/2008 time : 20.47

Plaadip, Some do explode on impact, there are too many kinds to really know without the canister or shell casing. Delays allow them to be thrown back and are not good for all situations. Age and manufacture also play a role.

comment 111 Plaadip date : 13/10/2008 time : 20.23

Dr. Phornthip said the cansiter hit her and dropped near and one second exploded. The shape of the wound in her chest matched with that of cannister. Explosive residuum is also same type. So she said there is no question about what caused her death. I wrote one time that the canister explods on impact. Sorry about the mistake. I thought that ex-forensic dep. cheif said so.

comment 110 rad date : 13/10/2008 time : 20.21

Lalida, You are correct, but remember the picture you posted of the guy throwing the canister you are describing? He was holding a tear gas gun, that gun shoots grenades, the US alone makes 3 dozen different projectiles or grenades for that gun (launcher). That would be my guess as to what did the damage. There are two different types of those projectiles, military and civilian (law enforcement). Some of the military stuff is capable of killing, the civilian stuff on the other hand is designed to disperse crowds or clear areas of people without inflicting serious injury. The canister you are referring to, if designed for law enforcement, will generally have a very small explosion, to remove the seals so that the gas can escape, it usually gets very hot so that it can't be readily picked up and thrown back. But, there are different types for different situations.

comment 109 FOS date : 13/10/2008 time : 20.04 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Rad, I've watched a video just now and I saw the cannister that the police was using is with a pointed flat head just like a coca cola can and not like a bullet with pointed head, so if it explode on her on impact, it shouldn't be creating a hole but a blast of multiple wounds. I don't know, I'm just guessing....but one thing I'm sure of what I saw is the cannister explodes instead of gas leaking from the cannister.

comment 108 Plaadip date : 13/10/2008 time : 19.57

Ian She wears a wig when she goes to the court.

comment 107 Plaadip date : 13/10/2008 time : 19.55

According to the experience observed by Dr. Pornthip, the china-made tear gas grenade exploded on truf and created 3 centimeter deep, 8 centi wide hole. The delay time is 4 cecond. Can you guess what's going to happen if the bomb drops near your leg? I think that it's highly possible that teargas hand grenade could be one of the culprit for the serious injury of the demonstrater. They don't mention what that is made of or if anything harmful in, but if the explosion is so strong, the fragment of the outer casing itself causes some injury.

comment 106 FOS date : 13/10/2008 time : 19.52 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Rad, What she said was, it created a "Hole" to the wound...shooting out from a cannister is not like shooting a bullet is it. To create such a size of the "hole" that she presented, it has to be very close, wouldnt it? I cannot see the picture she presented clearly as her picture was taken from the side with what she holds up.

comment 105 rad date : 13/10/2008 time : 19.41

Lalida, Like the answer to many things, "It all depends" Some tear gas projectiles can be effective up to 400 meters, they are designed to explode on impact, the explosion upon impact is what I believe she is saying did the damage. So it depends on what type of projectile was used and what 'close range' means. To me it means seeing the whites of your eyes. With a 400 meter range of the projectile 30 to 40 meters might be considered close?

comment 104 peacefulness date : 13/10/2008 time : 18.06 Nationmultimedia.com

IAN-- how about prof. stephen hawking NASA StarChild image of Stephen Hawking Born 8 January 1942 (1942-01-08) (age 66) Oxford, England Residence England Nationality English Fields Applied mathematician Theoretical physicist Institutions University of Cambridge Alma mater University of Oxford University of Cambridge Doctoral advisor Dennis Sciama Doctoral students Bruce Allen Fay Dowker Malcolm Perry Bernard Carr Gary Gibbons Known for Black holes Theoretical cosmology Quantum gravity Influences Dikran Tahta Notable awards Prince of Asturias Award (1989) Copley Medal (2006) i chose the best picture of her . hahaha........ u r right we are unable to judge people from their outward appearance. tks

comment 103 FOS date : 13/10/2008 time : 17.57 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Ian, If I'm not wrong, such that she said she proved, logically it can only happen at close range.... Not that I'm saying she's lying or whatever but it doesn't seemed logical when they are quite a distance away from the police firing range.

comment 102 Ian date : 13/10/2008 time : 16.09 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Well her appearance doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but I guess one should not judge a book by its cover. At least the PAD cannot say she has a police bias

comment 101 peacefulness date : 13/10/2008 time : 15.45 Nationmultimedia.com

Khunying Dr pornthip rojanasnan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornthip_Rojanasunand

comment 100 peacefulness date : 13/10/2008 time : 15.24 NATIONMULTIMEDIA.COM

now it is clear that miss aungkana pradabpanyavut died from the impact of tear gas canister explosion on 07/10/2008 , confirmed by dr porntip r. IAN-- khunying dr.porntip is as famous and well known in thailand as the world renowned chinese american forensic expert Dr. Henry Chang-Yu Lee (Chinese: 李昌鈺) in usa. HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN AND HER ROYAL HIGHNESS CHULABHORN WILL PRESIDE OVER THE CREMATION OF MISS AUNGKANA P THIS EVENING AT 16.00 HRS AT SRIPRAVAT TEMPLE. TKS A MILLION

comment 99 Ian date : 13/10/2008 time : 12.55 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Whilst I do not know the level of competence of Madame Pornthip I have no reason to doubt her. So we now move to another question, did the police on the ground know what they were using or were they as dismayed and surprised as the PAD? Were they duped by a higher authority or were the police, at all command levels, unaware of the capabilities of these devices? The fact that they have fully cooperated with Pornthip suggests they were equally surprised at the lethal results.

comment 98 Plaadip date : 13/10/2008 time : 12.44

Angkhana killed by tear gas canister explosion: Pornthip Forensic expert Pornthip Rojjanasunant said Monday that Angkhana Radabpanyawoot was killed by impact and explosion of a tear gas canister. Pornthip, director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science, said the circular shape wound on Anghkhana's chest was caused by a cylinder shape tear gas canister which exploded one second after it hit her. She said there was no need to conduct further investigations into the death and injuries of protesters because it became clear that they were caused by weapons of police. The Nation ******************************** PAD considers Pornthip in the government side. I think the cause of the death of the 25 years old girl who was a graduate of Asumption University was now very clear. She came with her mother and younger sister to join the demonstaration. She has just engaged. Police accused her of carring a bomb which killed her accidentally. This makes me feel sick. What do you feel, guys? About the hand grenade type, I think as long as it's an explosive type, it could cause a level of damage to the crowd, when it's exploded. Let's see how much harzardous they are. It may explain why shotgans' type fragment was found in the body of the injured. Wheter or not the Police on the ground know the danger or not, the Police Chief and others who supervised this operation should resign. Who purchased this grenade does not mean much. The police should have known the effects of that tear gas anyway. The use of this type of tear gas could be justified for the arrest of the armed terrorists olding up in their safe house as a part of the police command operation. You see. Who used this tear gas in inadeuate situation should hold responsible, not the personel who purchsed them.

comment 97 budm date : 13/10/2008 time : 11.25

So far Pornthip is saying that the damage may have been caused by the TEAR GAS CANISTERS used by the firing launcher, it does not sound like a hand grenade as shown in these pictures as accused by Yoon. We need more report from Pornthip as to when was the last time this type of canisters were used or when they were purchased. The police whm were given the tools to use may not know or were told. We need to get more reports and investigation.

comment 96 Ian date : 13/10/2008 time : 10.34 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Unless one feels that Pornthip is not a competent, qualified and unbiased investigator, would it not be best to shelve this issue for the moment whilst she completes her investigations. If she is correct in her preliminary reports, then the debate shifts to who ordered such devices and were the police aware of their effects.

comment 95 Plaadip date : 13/10/2008 time : 10.20

Just for ending this discussion. From Today's the Nation. Pornthip urges probes into who ordered purchase of explosive tear gases from China Forensic expert Pornthip Rojjanasunant Monday called for an investigation into who ordered the purchases of explosive tear gas canisters, which were used in the crackdown on protesters last week. Pornthip Chinese tear gas canisters used RDX explosives for ignition and thus they were considered weapons. Pornthip, director of the Central Institute of Forensic Medicine, said other countries did not use tear gas canisters from China for crow control. "The police who fired the tear gas canisters might not know that they were using bad things. But will anyone investigate who purchased these explosive canisters, which other countries do not use. They are considered weapons, not crowd control devices," Pornthip said. The Nation

comment 94 Plaadip date : 13/10/2008 time : 09.27

I think that the cuase of the damage was the exessive and ill-discipliend use of teargas which has a distractive power to kill or seriously injur the people. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/13/politics/politics_30085863.php The explosive residues found on the clothing and wounds of anti-government protesters match those found on the barrels of tear-gas launchers used by anti-riot policemen during their controversial operations on October 7, forensic scientist Pornthip Rojjananant said yesterday. ****************************** This makes me feel sick. What do you feel guys?

comment 93 FOS date : 12/10/2008 time : 16.46 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Plaadip, Have you not notice yourself is going round in circles, you are trying every way to defend for the Nation and the PAD instead of reasoning. For me , the debate with you ends here. Let the truth and justice appear by itself.

comment 92 Ian date : 12/10/2008 time : 14.07 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Perhaps Thais and Thai newspapers see things differently. To me a reporter reports facts and events. An editor in an editorial has the right to discuss his personal opinions. At least with the Nation is is rarely clear whether an article is a report or an editorial.

comment 91 Plaadip date : 12/10/2008 time : 13.31

Yeah, they should have known the exisitance of the hand grenade type of tea gas. But it looks military grenade, which is the explosion type, not spewing out the gas. So in the sense that it could be more dangerous than normal tear gas, the Nation's report seems right. I mean, even though it is a tear gas hand grenade, it is likely to be more dangerous one than the police usualy use to dispers a crowd. The forensic experts pointed out that point on the grenade, too, other than the danger of the Chinese type canister shot by grenade launchers. I think when the press cheking the abuse of govement power, they should not be too afraid of misreporting.That will make them cringe and hamper them from fulfilling most important duty. Personaly I cut sluck on them when they are doing the job to critisize the government which sometimes gives pressure not to report bad things about them. This is my personal belief. I think the Nation is doing a good job in reporting this crisis. I hope that they will keep it up.

comment 90 budm date : 12/10/2008 time : 12.41

The Nation: "Police caught with hand grenade, not only tear gas as claimed" Is this raised a legitemate question or just poor reporting without fact finding. This just shows that the Nation is just as irresponsible and arragant as other news paper. At this point, the investigation is still going on, I am sure Dr. Pornthip will give us some idea after her complete reports come out.

comment 89 Plaadip date : 12/10/2008 time : 12.09

I hear that some newspapers reported that the man lost his leg was a one-leged begger hired by PAD. I don't like this cynicism. They could have checked the fact by just calling his mother. Cynicisum with knowledge and common sense could teach us how to cope with this imperfect world, but cynisism withour knowledge and common sense is just disgusting. About this "hand grenade" staff, I think that The Nation raised a legitemate question about the Police attitude in the crackdown, while those newspapers are just irresponsible and arragant enough to be dergatory to the dignity of the victim hovering between life and death in such a easy-going way.

comment 88 Plaadip date : 12/10/2008 time : 02.38

The experts are talking about the tear gas shot by the grenade launcher. (You see the police shooting toward the crowd on TV? That is the grenade laucher.) According to them, they used three types of tear gas. First US made one which has delay time before starting to give out the gas.(No explosion) The china made canister explode and blast the tear gas smoke.(About the delay time, I am not sure, but I think the ex-forenstic department chief said that it will explode on impact.) The third one is china-made hand grenade, this is also explosion type, so I think the harzardness of it depends on what is inside or what it is made of. They are going to make forensic tests on the destructive forces. So far, this seems to be the most plousible theory to explain the damege made on the victims. (China recently used teargas shells to dispurse the protests in Tibet, but as far as I know, there was no reports of multilation. Those used in the crackdown may not be the same tear gas ) Few days ago, tt was reported that Police made a forensic test on the tear gas canister and concluded that it can't cause the type of multination that took place there, but I am not sure that they used the same tear gas the experts pointed out.

comment 87 FOS date : 11/10/2008 time : 17.47 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Plaadip, If you look clearly into the picture that I've posted, you can see that the tear Gas grenade detonate within seconds after it's been throw, in such a case how does it land on someone and make further explosion..... The tear gas theory not quite acceptable to me unless you pull the pin and hold it....

comment 86 Plaadip date : 11/10/2008 time : 17.26

It seems that china-made tear gas could be the cause of the injuries and the death of the young woman. I am not sure about the harmlessness of the tear gas hand grenade, too. This made me feel sick. What do you feel, guys? The sceprisim of some posters here should turn to the police. My experience in this country says that they will tell lies and do anything to get away with their wrong doings. How about the lawyer Somchai's case? The stroy of Police statements that a guy having a bomb with his right hand while he was injured and unconcious with full of blood is another evidence of deception. A doctor and seveal aid workers witnessed that that is a keyholder his holding during he got an emergency treatment from them. They must have known it is not a bomb should they are really professional. I am not sure what exactly model of tear gas canister they used but, if you go to one of the Chinese weapon maker which has defence contracts with Thai army, you can see introductions of verious tear gas products of explosive type with the warnings harming to drect the shells to persons since it could cause death or serious injury. I am not an expert on the matter, so I am not sure if this type of warming could attach to other safer tear gas products for precoution. But it indicates that the possibility of fatal effect caused by the use of those tear gas.

comment 85 wildone date : 11/10/2008 time : 10.09

I have been in at least 6 protests in Wash.DC and Berkeley, CA where the crowds were dispersed by the police or national guard using tear gas or pepper spray. Not once was anyone seriously injured. Whatever they use here seems to be lethal. Buckshot is another story.

comment 84 FOS date : 11/10/2008 time : 03.41 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

K. Yoon, I think it's only fair if you amend the title of this Blog as anyone can tell you a grenade does not explode in such a way otherwise you will be mis-leading your viewers. I got this picture from K. Thanong Blog

comment 83 www.antithaksin.com date : 10/10/2008 time : 22.20 www.antithaksin.com

Samak used to be really good at lying. He deserved the awards for best in debate. The police is usually good at framing, fabricating cases, falsifying evidences, threatening, backing up mafia and best of all assasination. Those are their jobs. Look! how nice the aiming position he took. Look! how well he concentrated on the victim's heart. It got right theire exactly. Ex-Judge Somchai must be really good at passing execution orders. Thaksin Shinawatra and Somchai have got all the quality men to do such jobs they want. This is for the ones who really do not pretend, just to cover-up Thaksin Shinawatra's ass. http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000120349 http://www.manager.co.th/QOL/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000120781 http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000119873 www.antithaksin.com

comment 82 Hermano_Lobo date : 10/10/2008 time : 17.30 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Comment No. 79- I am in total agreement !

comment 81 FOS date : 10/10/2008 time : 17.14 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

#C78, I've got the same feeling....

comment 80 Ian date : 10/10/2008 time : 15.50 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

comment 79, I totally agree.

comment 79 taurus8 date : 10/10/2008 time : 14.38

Please take off the opening slides from the The Nation. The message has been delivered. Stop reminding and stir up emotion. It's in bad taste and enough is enough.

comment 78 budm date : 10/10/2008 time : 10.47

Ian, I am agree that from the report that they did not find metal fragment, if the hand granades were used with that much damage you would think it will be a granade for sure. It sounds more like home made bomb, ping-pong bomb? I would sure like to find out if the PADs are using such bombs. It needs to be looked at just like the way they are looking at the polices, but I doubt that the Nation or Yoon will really look into the matter. I want nothing more than the truth and fair report to come from the people that called themselves journalists. The headline of this blog should be changed until the truth comes out if Yoon is really investigating the truth, otherwise why the headline is not changed yet by Yoon.

comment 77 Ian date : 10/10/2008 time : 10.19 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I have just read this in the Nation. ""The severe wounds on Angkana's body were not found to contain any metal fragment from an explosive. We found only some amount of chemical compound which looks like black carbon. We have sent this suspicious compound for study to the Thai Royal Police Office, " he said. What happened to the talk about hand grenades? Chinese tear gas canisters are claimed to cause this type of wound, thousands were used recently in Tibet, where are the reports of thousands of similar injuries then. I doubt if we will ever know the truth because if the truth was to be revealed it would reveal a side of Thai nature that they will not admit to.

comment 76 Ian date : 10/10/2008 time : 08.35 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

budm, what you say is true, however there is one big difference in this particular area between the British and the Thai public. Our public consists of hundreds of thousands of people who have seen active military service, WW2, Aden, Cyprus, East Africa, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and of course Northern Ireland. So you could not fool us the way the media and the PAD are fooling the Thais. We know the weapons of war and the characteristic injuries they produce.

comment 75 budm date : 10/10/2008 time : 02.49

Ian, you can wait until the sun burns out before you will see investiagtive/fact finding from Yoon. This is the same agenda/tactic used to sell newspapers in the US. When the facts finally come out, the paper will print the correcttion/aplogy on last page of the paper intsead of the front page when the facts are not there in the begining. I am sure it is the same in England. Most reorters these days use the paper to voice their own agenda instead of reporting the fact and let the people decide on their own. You will always need more than one sources on information.

comment 74 peacefulness date : 09/10/2008 time : 20.52 nationmultimedia.com

the thai police u see in youtube.

comment 73 peacefulness date : 09/10/2008 time : 20.23 Nationmultimedia.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR9swxDq4_Q ........................ ........................

comment 72 Hermano_Lobo date : 09/10/2008 time : 18.37 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

There is obviously dirty business afoot here. This Chamlong character sounds particularly nasty. When the police apprehended the villain he had some HE on him. Such is his influence he will get off with a slap on the wrist. Who is NOT corrupt in Thailand ?

comment 71 Ian date : 09/10/2008 time : 18.34 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

comment 68 www.antithaksin You can think and believe what you like, I have never heard of a tear gas grenade doing that to anyone, Chinese or otherwise. A blast temperature strong enough to do that amount of damage would have destroyed the gas.

comment 70 FOS date : 09/10/2008 time : 18.33 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

www, Roongthiwa Thatniyom the woman you've mentioned should know better than anyone else that the site is not a place that should be at knowing she's got 2 kids back home waiting for her. She just might be carrying the Bomb herself having to cause such injuries.

comment 69 FOS date : 09/10/2008 time : 18.26 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

WWW, I haven't read your rubbish yet but I've saw this video. How can one knows what's going on when this guy pull his gun out which he did not fired. It might be an act of self defence at the time when the the policemen were shot, we should not make a conclusion out of a short video as such even though pictures tells a million stories. It is not logical for them to put on such act when they know 80% of the Thais in Bangkok are against them with Video phones in their hands. I'm not siding with them but I will only accept facts with support.

comment 68 www.antithaksin.com date : 09/10/2008 time : 18.09 www.antithaksin.com

Roongthiwa Thatniyom, a PAD woman victim of the police shot, is still in the ICU with a very bleak prospect. She has a husband and two young children which are praying for her. She got a severe blast injury to the left side of the head. The skull is shattered. There was some bleeding inside the skull. Some brain tissue was lost. The left eyeball ruptured and dislodged from the eye socket. She already had three major operations and at best if she could survive she would be severely crippled permanently bed-bound and left blind. I hope the police and the dumbs would no more say about any PAD carry a grenade. This type of the blast to the head and the left eye, at best of their silly accusation is this is a special mobile phone bomb. It just happen to go out when the victim hold it up to speak. What a dumb police and a damn PM. At least two types of tear gas bullets are revealed, the American one which is without explosion effect and the Chinese one which is with explosion effect and could kill. How many more funerals are we going to have just for some people try to cover up Thaksin Shinawatra's guilts? http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000119824

comment 67 Ian date : 09/10/2008 time : 16.48 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, yes all explosives that close to a body would leave analysable traces in flesh and fabric. As to why it went off, that would be easier to answer if the actual explosive was known. Many explosives, commercial and homemade, require careful handling. C4 is one of the safest, "as harmless as putty", but God help you if it starts to sweat. Dynamite is safe until it starts to sweat. Many "safe" explosives also become unstable with age, picric acid, a common detonator, is particularly famous (infamous?) for this. As a kid I used to put a thin layer of picric acid crystals under pupils desk lids, when the slammed the lid it made a loud bang. Sometimes if the picric was a bit old it would just go off anyway. I once blew a hole in a concrete bridge in my local park using a glycerol and potassium permanganate mixture.

comment 66 rad date : 09/10/2008 time : 15.39

Ian, The missle is not an option, but plastic explosive, first requires a detonator and would leave lots os residue as would almost any other explosive???

comment 65 FOS date : 09/10/2008 time : 13.25 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

God have spoken.......you make my day K. Yoon. Frankly, I have nothing against you but I'm totally against your Blogs, your Blogs are mostly one sided views without fair judgment and you refuse to clarify your points even asked. Now, that to me is bad manner. To me, As a professional journalist like you, you should be fair on all judgment and clearify any misuderstanding from us the best you can and stand ground if you have your own support but you have ignored us totally. Anyway, seeing you come out for the first time in 2 years that I've been in this Blog Site, it's certainly a thrill to me. Hope you will continue to communicate with us and clear out whatever misunderstanding there is or was.

comment 64 Ian date : 09/10/2008 time : 12.17 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I would love to observe Yoon's investigative panel at work, if it is ever formed.

comment 63 Ian date : 09/10/2008 time : 12.15 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

If I can quote two sentences from the autopsy report. " The wound was caused by external explosive force from outside of the body. No shrapnels were found. " "there was some soot deposit on the underwear and some burnt spots. " No shrapnel, soot deposits and burn marks, This to me is clearly indicative of an HE explosion next to her body, not an incoming missile and grenade. It could be that the girl was duped into carrying it for someone else, a wrapped piece of C4 looks very harmless. Many people in both mining and heavy industry have access to plastic explosives of various kinds. It is also easy to make your own if you don't mind a few risks. Here is a complete step by step guide using houshold chemicals. http://www.skepticfiles.org/new/003doc.htm

comment 62 Plaadip date : 09/10/2008 time : 08.52

There was a 40 centimeter wound. Thank you for the updating.

comment 61 Plaadip date : 09/10/2008 time : 08.43

Yeah it's like Lemon. But the police still can say that like the bomb made by rubber and for the riot use. I suppose the police said that in the press spokesman in the previous press conference, mentioned by a previous poster. The Nation is not so pro PAD if you read other news paper like Matichon, actually which surprisec me given their post cuop tone of reporting. I think, Mr. Yoon is more pro PAD than the Nation's general editorial policy. Police claims on the woman victim is just outrageous. They firstly said there are no ecternal injury that could cauuse a death, right? They called it mysterious. Now they are talking that the hidden bomb might cause her death. How come a bomb cause a death without giving significant external injury. I don't belive what the police said at all.

comment 60 Yoon date : 09/10/2008 time : 08.01 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ThaiTalk

Many thanks indeed for all the enlightening comments on this topic. I am particularly thankful to those who make frank and open remarks which are always welcome in the blogsphere. Because of the diversity of views on this controversial issue, we have proposed that a truly independent body be set up to go into every aspect of the Oct 7 incident so that fair and verifiable conclusions could be reached. As a newspaper, we certainly welcome your views. We will continue to follow up on the investigations into what really happened on that day -- and, most importantly, why were there so many casualties if only tear gas had been used. It's our professional duty to open up the forum for all sides of the issue. Thanks again for the passionate and vigorous exchange in this blog. The Nation does try every day to cover an issue from all angles.

comment 59 www.antithaksin.com date : 09/10/2008 time : 04.35 www.antithaksin.com

http://www.antithaksin.com/087_Prime_Murderer.html May all the discussions are to find out the truths for the sake of this girl and her family. If any police would blame this girl of carrying a grenade in her left arm, I would prey for such a wicked thought. It is not much different from what Samak lied about only one accidental death in October 6, 1976. Angkana's Autopsy Report Ramathibodhi University Hospital says Angkana died because of perforations in the heart, the lungs, and the stomach. There was an open wound of 40 cm size deep into the rib cage on the left. The force which caused the injury was equivalent to a fall from a three-storey height. Definitely, the injuries were not from a tear gas bullet, no matter how close to the launcher. Tear gas shot would not cause avulsion of a limb either. Associate Prof. Dr.Than Supatrapan, the Director of Ramathibodhi University Hospital and Assistant Prof. Dr.Wichan Peawnim, Head of the Forensic Medicine, Pathology Department, concluded the autopsy findings of Angkana that there was a 40-cm large wound on the left side of the chest extending to the left arm deep into the ribs. The wound was caused by external explosive force from outside of the body. No shrapnels were found. There was blood in the left pleural cavity and a severe lung contusion. There were lacerations of the heart, the lungs and the stomach. The left arm was broken. The upper arm flesh was avulsed. There were high-heat-burnt patchy areas. The cause of death was from the large wound, lacerations of the heart and a lot of bleeding of the lungs. The unique features of the wound revealed the possible cause of a high velocity plus high heat solid object. Moreover, there was some soot deposit on the underwear and some burnt spots. The soot was sent to the police for further investigations. SEE MORE IN www.antithaksin.com

comment 58 Hermano_Lobo date : 09/10/2008 time : 04.06 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

This is a disgrace to professional journalism ! Hang your head in shame

comment 57 Hermano_Lobo date : 09/10/2008 time : 03.59 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

This is all very disappointing. What about 'Investigative journalism' - being subjective? This is lackey writing, propaganda ! Some would say cowardly. Not professional, a slur on writers.

comment 56 budm date : 09/10/2008 time : 02.46

This is typical tactic of Yoon to post a blog, but never reply when validity comes into question. According to Yoon "it was clear that police were told to "do whatever you have to" to clear the way for the MPs " You were not there but you seems to know so much to make accusation without real proof. The Nation must be paying you real well to reports without fact checking, just the rumor is good enough for the Nation and it really shows. How about stop hiding behind the rock after you throw out the accusation? be a man or may be your wife is telling you what to write.

comment 55 FOS date : 09/10/2008 time : 00.57 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

TV, Budm is being sarcastic....cool down my man, I think you've been writing too many Blogs, take it easy....

comment 54 budm date : 09/10/2008 time : 00.44

Thevoice, you got me wrong, if you read my comment about the Nation, it clearly shows that the Nation is always on the side of the PAD that is why the Nation will never do any investigation before putting out bad information to instigate more problems. I do not trust the PAD either, hwo can you believe them when they think 30% should be elected and 70% should be appotinted for goverment positions, that is not democracy, but their group has the word democracy in it, what a joke.

comment 53 budm date : 09/10/2008 time : 00.36

The picture below is for Figure E-7. The ABC-M25A1 riot-control hand grenade.

comment 52 thevoice date : 09/10/2008 time : 00.36 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/the-voice

Budm, don't be naive. You mean you trust The Nation so much? They are the biggest bullshitter! All their reportings are one-sided. Many don't trust the PAD either. They are the cause of this mess.

comment 51 budm date : 09/10/2008 time : 00.33

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-30/appe.htm

comment 50 budm date : 09/10/2008 time : 00.21

It can't be, PAD will never use force, home made bombs, guns, clubs against anybody- not!! It is always the other side, PAD can never do wrong according to the Nation.

comment 49 thevoice date : 09/10/2008 time : 00.20 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/the-voice

White lies!!! Those were from the PAD parties.

comment 48 massein date : 08/10/2008 time : 23.17

If the object is a grenade it is very old and the color has faded and the pin and spoon are rusti. This could happen in a damp climate.

comment 47 rad date : 08/10/2008 time : 23.01

Ian, The police spokesman said that it was a tear gas grenade. In response to newspaper photos, not the Nation, but the same as in Yoon's blog. So the cops verify the photos as true. He went on to say that only tear gas was used and there were no rubber bullets used, they also found ping pong bombs, believed to be PADs. They were goiing to conduct an investigation into the serious injuries to attempt to determine the causes. Another spokesman said the woman who died was carrying a bomb under her arm or in her purse as her left side ribs were broken. This is based on autopsy results.

comment 46 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 22.33 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Massein, I was comparing the photos, it looks very close to the m67 except the color, now the second issue is who is holding it...

comment 45 massein date : 08/10/2008 time : 22.19

this is the m67 and the other is the m61, but there or proble many more shapes don't mean to beat a dead horse.

comment 44 massein date : 08/10/2008 time : 22.09

this one is right color but has a flat bottom

comment 43 massein date : 08/10/2008 time : 22.00

the m67 has about the same color but looks a little larger

comment 42 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 21.50 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Ian, Could it be a type of the Tear Gas as the police said? There are ones that can be thrown like a grenade isn't it?

comment 41 massein date : 08/10/2008 time : 21.49

Looks like the stander vietnam era gernade to me. But what do i know i'm and old man vietnam was 43 years ago, i remember it look egg shaped and off shate of graygreen

comment 40 Ian date : 08/10/2008 time : 21.22 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

rad, I did that when the subject first cropped up, there are some problems, unless it has been resprayed, none are that colour, there is no visible firing mechanism protruding from the end, but above all else it is too damned small (unless it is in a giant's hand). I have seen pebbles on a beach looking like that but not a grenade. Unless someone can direct me to an article that describes a smooth, unseamed, white/ivory coloured and egg sized grenade I remain unconvinced. Sorry to be so stubborn but that is the damned strangest grenade I have ever seen.

comment 39 rad date : 08/10/2008 time : 20.17

Ian, Google egg shaped grenades, there is a hint in Hermanos pcture.

comment 38 Hermano_Lobo date : 08/10/2008 time : 19.02 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

"Ich habe der Reichstag niedergebrannt und habe die Kommunisten getadelt. Ich kenne das Verfahren!" "I burnt down the Reichstag and blamed the Communists. I know the technique !"

comment 37 Hermano_Lobo date : 08/10/2008 time : 18.59 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez

Who raided the museum ? This is a visual set up. I had one once, I left it out in the rain and it went very rusty !

comment 36 Ian date : 08/10/2008 time : 18.18 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

comment35, then would someone please identify the egg shaped, egg sized and egg coloured object being displayed to the camera. It does not resemble any grenade I have ever seen.

comment 35 peacefulness date : 08/10/2008 time : 17.41 Nationmultimedia.com

Khun Lalida-- at a very critical moment like this , i do not think the riot police is throwing a 鸡蛋 "gai ton" (egg) as mentioned by IAN. hahahaha..........tks pls take care.

comment 34 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 17.14

FOS, Of course, who would oppose that? But I think the police will say that it's a tear gas grenade. I am not sure that the size will matter to decide fragmant type or gas one. If a grenade has enough explosive power which could flash out fragments with high speeds, it is type of grenade which police can not use to supress the domonstration rally. I think that press is anylizing the moving pictures as Thai PBS did for the first crash between PAD and the police.

comment 33 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 16.38 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Peacefulness, Thanks for the information, do you have any further accurate information of what substance is it that they're throwing?

comment 32 thevoice date : 08/10/2008 time : 16.31 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/the-voice

Yoon, quite clear-cut you're instigating more trouble. I suggest you quit your job as a journalist if you and The Nation cannot be neutral in your reporting.

comment 31 peacefulness date : 08/10/2008 time : 16.16 nationmultimedia.com

suject picture from bkk post on tdy's issue front page. also on afp news bkk. if still to small u can save the picture and enlarge it. Lalida siujae-- the back ground is the entrance to the parliament (new one behind the old one) side-door. tks

comment 30 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 16.01 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Plaadip, I think the main point is, in order to have a clear picture of what's going on, someone should present these pictures to the authority and have it varify of what they are using and what's going on. Pictures speaks a thounsand words and we want answers.... and not speculation or listening to wild reports. This is a matter of people getting seriously hurt and it's no joke, someone has to answer for it.

comment 29 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 15.47

Yeah, it is difficult to say what model and it could be a tear gas grenade. The makeup of the subject in the police's hand is that of grenades? So the question is what is in it. Maybe the police improvised it. Even if that is a normal tear gas grenade, there is still other possiblities, like shot grenade by the launcher. The point is how to explain the cause of the damage.

comment 28 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 15.26 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

K. Yoon, BTW, I didn't see any pictures from the Nation of the PAD's shooting at the Police with water pistol or poking them with a feather.....Did your photographer miss those or are you guys siding?

comment 27 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 14.57 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

K. Yoon, As one of the leading media in this country, I'm sure you have more specific pictures then these ones you've up. The Police reloading the Tear Gas is caught on Camera and Police throwing the Grenade I do not see. Relying the Bloggers to post such as P19 is not that reliable and professional, I believe your post better since you have such close-up ones, so lets see it.

comment 26 Ian date : 08/10/2008 time : 14.20 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

comment 20, the picture. I looks like a slightly cracked egg to me, I know of no grenade that shape or colour. Whilst there are many egg shaped grenades, for example RGD-5 from Russia, and the HDGRO series from Austria, they are all about 10cms long and painted green or blue. Can you give a type and model name to this pictured grenade, if not I will assume it is someone's breakfast

comment 25 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 14.10 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Peaceful, The background of the P C19 look funny, not of any background I saw on the news.....

comment 24 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 14.03

Elected government can be as brutal as military one. You can see AMNO in Malaysia. How do they use the Police to crash their political opponents? How is their treatment of the blogge, which is only place for Malaysian to critisize the government.? If it is not uncheched, they will abuse thier power anyway.

comment 23 FOS date : 08/10/2008 time : 14.02 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Dom

Peaceful, Can you enlarge the photo C19.......Thanks. Make a Blog out of it if the size is the problem.

comment 22 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 13.44

Border Patrol might have grenade as their standard weapon. So it may not be seized one.

comment 21 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 13.30

No, hand grinade is not a police staff. They can not use it for any type of the operaration in ordinary countries, I guees. That is most likely from the confiscated stock of the police.

comment 20 peacefulness date : 08/10/2008 time : 13.21 nationmultimedia.com

correction--- right hand should be left-hand. hand grenade (unexploded)collected after the incidents by pad members.

comment 19 peacefulness date : 08/10/2008 time : 13.16 Nationmultimedia.com

pls watch his right-hand armed with hand grenade (look like an egg white colour) being throwing out to pad demonstrators. 07/10/2008.

comment 18 theinnaing date : 08/10/2008 time : 12.54 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/chitchat

I wish Thai government should not copy the Burmese junta's style that practicing "Hanging on Power" is first priority than any others.

comment 17 Ian date : 08/10/2008 time : 12.39 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

The bottom line is that Thai is killingThai whilst the real antagonists sit safely in prison, or stately homes or overseas. When will Thais wake up and see how easily they are being manipulated?

comment 16 theinnaing date : 08/10/2008 time : 12.15 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/chitchat

I don't know police really use grenade or not. But the real fact showed that there are deaths in breaking protestors on 7th October 2008 yesterday whereas there was bloodless, deadless coup in September 2006. Something wrong, armed soldiers did bloodless. But civilian government did bloodshed. If there is nothing wrong, may be I am wrong.

comment 15 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 11.48

Sorry for the dubble posting. I thought the first click did not work. You see. My assistant was in the place and saw a police have hand-guns. No Thai press believe that the police are a completely clean. They fear the crowd so they have some weapons for their protection, almost always. In the police station near the site, there was a full-armed police commnad force standing by, too. About 4 person amputated, there shold be more fact chekings, but my impression is that the Police did it to scare away the crowd, and make their job easier. This is a way of thinking that security aparatus tend to have in this type of situation. Will you ask that the Police did not think of political consequence? No they tend not to think of it, when their boss ordered them to do it at any cost. I saw a lot of staff that the military or police did stupid things which were counter-effective in political sense. By the way, I don't understand why those poeple who usually are very scornful of the attitude of the Thai police now become very supportive of them. About, WHC's comment, he means that this type of stuff is not only from The Manager site, other newspaper also reports it. You don't know how much hostile Thai press are to this PAD's paper. If other newspapers reported a fact which is pro PAD and anti-police, they did it hesitantly, which means the evidence was everywhere, so they cannot ignore it. The grenade looked so old? I think he just does not know about Thai and SEA. They are still using it. Maybe you don't know how old was the tear gus which was used in the first crash at the motolopotan police headquarters.

comment 14 wch date : 08/10/2008 time : 11.34

Ian, When you write the bore size, write like this, Cal.40mm or Bore 40mm or B.105mm (calibre)

comment 13 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 11.19

If a leader of one country shows no sighs of condolence when people died and huge number of people injured, that guy is a psychopath. I am sorry for the hash ward, but this is how I am feeling about him. Is he really know what he's doing? About the authentity of the photo, the same people said same thing as the photo, when pro-government mobs attacked PAD. It is the easiest way to raise up the question about any serious arguments. It may be a fake. It may be a conspiracy of another side. People are killed. Be serious and think!

comment 12 Plaadip date : 08/10/2008 time : 11.19

If a leader of one country shows no sighs of condolence when people died and huge number of people injured, that guy is a psychopath. I am sorry for the hash ward, but this is how I am feeling about him. Is he really know what he's doing? About the authentity of the photo, the same people said same thing as the photo, when pro-government mobs attacked PAD. It is the easiest way to raise up the question about any serious arguments. It may be a fake. It may be a conspiracy of another side. People are killed. Be serious and think!

comment 11 Ian date : 08/10/2008 time : 11.13 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

wch, ok to me when a missile size is quoted to me it is the diameter, so we are using different criteria. Now would you agree that all these photos could be stock photos, none show enough background to enable the location and circumstances to be defined. Incidentally, would you trust a grenade as old as rusty as the one in the picture?

comment 10 wch date : 08/10/2008 time : 11.09

Now I have 5 local newspapers on my desk. If anyone suspect this photo is the make-up, check them out on those local newspapers, So colourful !!!

comment 9 wch date : 08/10/2008 time : 10.55

Ian, tear gas bullet, size of bullet is the length. Thai police displayed on TV, two kinds, 70mm and 100mm. 70 flies in parabolic trajectory of 15-20 meters, 100mm, tear gas cum incineration, can fly pretty straight trajectory over 50- 100 meters. This one was used as seen in the first photo. The shell dropped in second photo is the protective cap. Live bullet is the assault grenade having shell and warhead that explodes by hitting target. It contains lethal shots inside. We dont call simple tear gas shell as LIVE BULLET. Thank you for your attention, have a nice day.

comment 8 bobby date : 08/10/2008 time : 10.46 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/william

You are a disgrace to journalism. This is false it is one thing to support a thug group like the PAD as you and the Nation newspaper does. But to throw away your journalistic integrity to falsely accuse the police in such a vital issue facing Thailand is criminal. How can anyone believe the garbage that comes out of the paper of the Nation from this day forward. Journalism is dead in Thailand.

comment 7 Ian date : 08/10/2008 time : 10.40 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

wch, well at least we both agree that the pictures are all of different people What is a " 70mm live bullet." is there a gun which can fire a dead bullet? You say you know these weapons, so I assume you know why he was wearing thick gloves. Firing this gun in the position shown in the top picture would have interesting and unpleasant results to the user. Incidentally how do you get a "70mm live bullet" into a 40mm gun? http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m79.htm

comment 6 wch date : 08/10/2008 time : 10.35

The uniform and insignia of the first and third, seems like bio-chemical unit of the border police (the round shape in center is grenade shape). The uniform in other two photo are infamous pseudonym KAKI of Thai police. The hand-grenade looks old one in long stock as they are rusted.

comment 5 wch date : 08/10/2008 time : 10.23

In the first and third photo, First photo, Look at the truck window (the right side glass), someone is there, photo grapher ? Third photo, compare GREEN LEAVES of street trees with ones of the first photo. The first photo is close-up photo in front of truck, the thirde one is when the gunner covers himself behind the truck, while the photographer is seen in the car glass,,,

comment 4 wch date : 08/10/2008 time : 10.08

Iceberg, I am one of those who are familiar with this weapons. in last photo, grabing the grenade is correct and the bomb is not ready to be thrown because the safety pin is still in position. Anyhow the posture throwing one must be like this, not overhead throwing like baseball throwing. The photo is apparently taken by digital, zoom camera, that the enlargement is still clear. In the first photo, this is called M79-B grenade launcher that can use 70mm live bullet. This launcher can be in two parts and can be hidden in ordinary school backpack. The soldier uniform seems from the chemical weapon unit. Observe the sleeve of each uniform, also colour and insignia. They are different people. Few cameramen or mobile phoner can take clear identical photo while the police is on-look. Only telescope-mounted digital camera can obtain clearer scene.

comment 3 Ian date : 08/10/2008 time : 10.02 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

I find these pictures strangely unconvincing, first we see a policemen wearing gloves using both hands to fire a gun, then we see a gloveless hand holding a grenade. looks like a montage of "stock" photos to me. Incidentally the hand holding the grenade looked very Caucasian to me:-)

comment 2 iceberg date : 08/10/2008 time : 09.33 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ranchhand

Do you expect anyone to believe this? From the pictures, someone was holding a grenade on a right hand, the photographer ran around and took a picture of him from the front and back position but didn't show the face of the perpetrator. Thus, how could those two policemen with the tear gas guns hold a grenade when both of their hands were used to hold the gun. This man really have no credibility when presenting the news.

comment 1 wch date : 08/10/2008 time : 08.40

Yesterday I surveyed the site. Police use, 1. Shot gun : holderble shot gun was carried by plain coat police with large long backpack and stay in mix with tear gas gunner company. 2. Live hand granade : is believed in use of the Border Police troop. 3. Booby Trap of hand grenade : Hand Grandae is set in car (under hand break lever), window brush, tire (The Cherokee blast in front of Chat Thai party building was the mistake when the plain coat police tried to teeth the grenade into the hand break lever). Booby trap implanting is the well-known skill of border police. 4. Police modify the tear gas by using ammunition powder and SHOTS from shot gun bullet that is put into 5.5 inch incineration tear gas shell (this is for insurgency suppression, not demonstrator). Their shooting posture is very much trained form that can be done by only regular troop (position on thigh and shoot low at target). This straight bullet killed and cut the limb. PAD must be CAREFUL at all BOOBY TRAPs. PAD's Counter-Sniper operation ------------------------------------ Yesterday the team (vigilante team) worked well. An ambush member successfully subdued a shot gun holding police by his pick up truck. Also hand grenade carrying polices were attacked in ambush. Today, if situation escalate, the police will use KILL OPERATION. Prepare to This !. Now PAD can use weapon for self-defence. Deploy counter-sniper team on the Kufa building top and school building tops. All citizens around the site and seen strange weapon and movement of police, use SMS to PAD Kufa site, load onto BLOG. Any citizens having seen police holding lethal weapon, take photo and keep it together with face, skin and whole body contour. Later PAD will prosecute them.

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