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Thai Talk
Analysis and comments on political and current affairs
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Saturday , July 5 , 2008
Riot police at Thai embassy in Phnom Penh....
Posted by Yoon , Reader : 726 , 10:07:13  
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Riot police have been deployed to the Thai embassy in Phnom Penh as a dispute over Phreah Vihear temple heats up, with several unions threatening to protest against Thai efforts to scuttle the Hindu monument's listing as a World Heritage Site.

The World Heritage Committee, represented by 21 countries, will consider Cambodia's proposed inscription of the Phreah Vihear Sunday evening (Bangkok time).

Thailand will be represented by Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattana and Chairman of Thailand's World Heritage Committee Pongporn Adireksarn in the meeting.

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said upon his return from China and Brunei yesterday that he will address the issue in his weekly Sunday television talk show tomorrow.

Stay tuned. The controversy is getting hotter by the day.   

Read comment

comment 16
wch date : 13/07/2008 time : 14.48

Now that the mission of ICC (plus a steering committee as reported) is clear, but both countries keep overlapped interest in the land as of now, the administation scope and regualtions as of immediate future.

The overlapped interests are now exaggerated in emotion. Thai residents now in group proceeds toward the castle to expel Kampuchean residents in overlapped piece of land, while Kampuchean force is mobilizing nearby so Thai force does.

The ICC to be membered by US, China, Japan, France, Belgium and two kingdoms may turn into again " Peace Keeping Committee ".

As reported, Thai DSI (central intelligence agency) started investigation onto the would-be memebers of ICC and its steering committees, to find faults such as past criminal activities of antiques smuggling and drug trafficking.

In other hands, as reported, Kampuchea completed the list of stolen antiques and stone artpieces from the castle that are supposed to be done by Thai citizens and kept by Thai museums and even they have information who keeps what and 'whose government officials working in the achaeology department have smuggled away the pieces and put them into international black market.

All of this will develop in excitement for coming months and years.
comment 15
Plaadip date : 12/07/2008 time : 15.48

The following article ot the Nation is another example of half-truth by leaning on government informarion. I know this is the way that an articile shold be wirtten in the news part, but I think it could be better to have a littel more detailed explanation of the UNESCO document which does not rule out the possibility to include the conflicted area by requesting Cambodia to make a proposal about the scope of the future PROTECTION area. The FM cannot say the ICC will not cover the conflicted area, because it is not decideded yet and ,from my understanding, the ICC's plan seems to take the inclusion as presupposition. I think the today's editoroal of The Nations today's editorial(11 july) didn't clearly answer to the people's concerns abouta the temple and territory, too.

I depends on the quotes of the UNESCO documents in Thai newspaper. So I may change my idea after I read the original document. If somebody knows how to find if through the internet, please let me know.

Preah Vihear board 'not on shaky ground'
By Supalak Ganjanakhundee
The Nation
Published on July 12, 2008


The International Coordinating Committee (ICC) to protect and develop Preah Vihear will cover only the temple's listed World Heritage property, not the area claimed by both Cambodia and Thailand, the Foreign Ministry said yesterday.


It is widely misunderstood among academics in Thailand that the ICC would be set up to oversee the 4.6 square kilometres of disputed area, officials at the ministry said.


Joining the ICC would not mean allowing foreigners to run Thai territory, they said. The World Heritage Committee asked Cambodia to convene an ICC to safeguard and develop of the "property" no later than next February, inviting Thailand and not more than seven other international partners into the body.


If Thailand could sit on the body, it would benefit by participating in administration of the Cambodian temple, said Pisanu Suvanajata, the ministry's deputy director of East Asian Affairs.


The ICC is a policy-maker for development of the Preah Vihear, he said.


"We [Thailand] would have the chance to voice our concerns and protect our interests if we have representatives on the body," said Pisanu, who attended the meeting of the World Heritage Committee in Quebec, Canada, earlier this week.


"I see no loss from sitting on the body but benefit for Thailand from knowing how they run the site if, in future, we propose our adjoining part as world heritage," he said.


Thailand's World Heritage Committee, chaired by Pongpol Adireksarn, will explore the advantages and disadvantages before making a final decision in coming months, he said.
comment 14
wch date : 10/07/2008 time : 12.11

Plaadip,

If one could see from Kampuchean eyes, he may reach an idea how Thailand must face up from now on.

The official name of modern Kampuchea is,

Preăh Réachéanachâkr Kâmpŭchea
Royaume du Cambodge
Kingdom of Cambodia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Cambodia).

The young monarch, Norodom Sihamoni was a member of UNESCO and actively worked to have acquired the WHC accreditions over many of Angkorean ruins, prior to the crowning.

Hun Sen made a touching, patriotic speech in the occassion not forgetting to mention the royal efforts in the past. Whole nation is now in festive mood. Why ?.

Kampuchea or Khmer had repeatedly experienced in the defeats through history, internally and externally, they lost much of the territory to Siam and Vietnam, and uncompromisable lift among princes for crowning and desperate civil wars between princes or between different ideological groups. Even they changed the country names back and forth Khmer and Kampuchea.
Main group of ethnics are Kampuchean, Khmerean, Mon and 10 minor ethnic groups of Tai, Malay, Vietnamese, Kha, Hmong, Lao, etc.

Acquiring back 'The Preah Vihear' is regarded a victor after their 1000 years suffering. By this, they try to form a national identity discouraging any ethos of ethnic divisions, and by involving the monarch into the new patriotism, Hun Sen want to implant strong political cetrism like Thai monarchism.

Hun Sen takes wise steps. Befriending powerful nations in arms, he wants to upgrade instantly into modern kingdom and his last ambition, long lasting political hegemony in the fledgling democratic kingdom. He needs to sideline Thailand that offers less and distant friend, like Japan is more comfortable supporter in international politics.

Kampuchean and its leaders will manage Thailand marginally. Thailand must remember Hun Sen and his CPT comrades spent so hard time against Khmer Rouge and other rebels because Thailand supported their opponents. Thailand did not want Vietnam back-up Hun Sen CPT government.

By time, relation turning more stale, then Thailand will plan to build lofty concrete wall just beside the castle as the castle mains, as a bargain bid (to be joint administration system and boundary drawing).
The local politics will continue to make use of this patriotic chip to play with.

By this commotion, another demarkation problems arise with Lao and Burma again and a brief border wars may arise, like the airraid in 1988 with Laos.
comment 13
Plaadip date : 09/07/2008 time : 14.26

Thanks, Mr. Wch.

I understand that 10 years non-contest does not means that Thai accepted the 1962 ICJ's dicision but actually it makes it impossible for Thai to revese the decision, isn't it? I think that the real question is what is the international norm to a "disputed territory" when the organziaon like ICJ made a decision for a countyr and the country effectively controled it for more than 40 years after the decision. I guess that the previous government can not stand the international pressure for the need of rapid rehabilitation of the ruins and was finally made some compromise in exhange for one year delay. Otherwise I can't understand why they allowed WHC put such a clear statement in their minute. According to the person in charge in the previous government, there still had been a lot of room for manuvering to make it joint-registration. It may be true but their support for the solo registration made the matter more complicated.

I am the one who think the 1962 ICJ's dissision is unfair even though Thai occupied the temple in 1954 by force. The geopgraphy so eloquently says that that should be in Thai territoty. (Sihanuk was such a good lobiest to get the support from both sides, actually. ) This was another example of arbitrary demacation of colonial power caused a serious conflict afterwards. But I think the claim of some Thai experts and activists that they can still get the temple is a little bit extreme. The claim that the government should continue to push for the joint-registration by using Thai's non-acceptantce to the ICJ's decision and the indispensability of its corporation for the doveloment of the are as a leverage is a reasonable one from my viewpoint.

I don't to intend to exempt the mishandling of the issue by the current government. This gervenement does not have credability at all to deal with this sensitive issue related to national territory and pride with big political debt called Takshin. But I started to think that pushing this as patriotic issue further would go nowhere. I hope that the oppositions might know it and limit the use of this issue to attack the government, which I think deserves it. They feel free to do it now that Camodia got registration and Thais don't have to worry about the possibility that Hun Sen would organize the assorted attack against Thai interests in Cambodia.

I might be wrong so always welcom new imputs to change my opinion.
comment 12
wch date : 09/07/2008 time : 09.06

comment 11

1. If I spelled somewhere ' statue', it is wrong but I must have said it instead, 'statute'.

2. In the 62 ICJ ruling,there is no statute (or evaluating, debating among constestants, ruling) on the French-drawn demarkation of border and the territorial map having been presented by the appellant - Kampuchea.
Only what was ruled, is the ownership of the Ruins of The Castle, that is now interpreted by the Democrat as only ' the architectural building and structure'. This interpretation is now shared by many legal and judicial experts of Thailand.

3. " 10 years' non-contest" can not be intepreted by the court or by the appellant, that Thailand shall have conceded or acknowledged the rulings.
It must have been, is the will of non-conformity of Thailand to the rulings by reason of the facts that,
a. Thailand judged the court formation was prejudicial as the judges were appointed by only communist nations (Poland, Hungary ,,,) and the appellant was also the communist nation - Republic of Kampuchea led by the red prince, Nordohm Sihanouk (Red Kampuchea was the immigent threat to Thai democratic sovereignty at That Time in the peninsular domino situation).
In consequence, Thailand made prope appeal to United nation and its documentary evidents are left today.
b. Thailand regarded the demarkation and its negotiation must have been made, exclusively and mutually, without ICJ intervetion, by two sovereign governments because 1962, the time had legitimate state parties of Thailand and Kampuchea without colonial influence of France.

Therefore there is no reason for any expert to be confused on the interpretation of the rulings as well as general understandings of Thai citizens.

The political significance of Samak cabit on the joint communique is understood by Thai general public to concede the reserved rights of the ruins as well as the future pretext of Kampuchea to claim the whole boundary of the castle complex (50 acres !?) because the RUINS are scattered in broad land area of the vicinity and the neighborhood of the castle mountain.
Also, at Kampuchean demand by WHC supports, all of the removed stoneworks, being kept by Thai museums and individuals must be returned to Kampuchean party.

The dispute will continue and the relationship will remain sour in future.
comment 11
Plaadip date : 08/07/2008 time : 23.37

Maybe I am most ardent poster as well as most misspelling one.

I have a question. Some experts say that there is no stipulation of the statue of limitation in the ICJ's Statute. Actually the article 61, Para 5 says,"No application for revision may be made after the lapse of ten years from the date of the judgment" The expearts claimed that the article 61 is"misled and confusing" but they don't explain how it is midleading and confusing. Does Mr.Whc or anyone else knows what kind of argnment could make this para not a stipulation of statute of limitation? The group of exparts includes Tammasart University professor. There must be credible argument to support it.
comment 10
Plaadip date : 07/07/2008 time : 10.52

In my last comments. I missused "undermined" with "underestimate" . I mean Nopardon "underestimated" opponent's capability to make it a national political issue, which I think is justifiable. Sorry
comment 9
wch date : 07/07/2008 time : 08.39

As to the complaints of PM about the interruption of judiciary against the administrators (cabinet).

This must be clarified.

Jurisdiction of,
Court of Constitution,
Court of Administration.

I oppose to the interpretation of the jurisdiction made by a Thammasat law professor.

Court of Administration was supposed to have made the Injunction against the legality of the legitimate procedure of decision-making of Prime Minister and his cabinet members.
As known, the preparatory steps of pre-view of all legality, coordination of related agencies and view of general public sentiment that were supposed to have made by the cabinet, prior to the preliminery treaty made in Paris on May 22,
Are MISSING (not published in the official gadget of cabinet meeting and its web postings).
Also the gag order - Top Secret of all procedure prior to June 18 joint communique shall be a serious implication to the right of knowing of the citizen, and subject to the criminal law.

This default made by the administrators shall fall in the jurisdiction of Court of Administration.

Court of Constitution has the right to rule out about the CONSTITUTIONALITY of the decisions made by the administrators, here the point of the territorial land, and the ownership of the RUINs of the Castle Praviharn.

EXAMPLE
In dispute of taxation with the Revenue Department, the taxpayer can sue the department in two causes.
Cause 1 : If tax calculation is correct. This is belonging to Court of Administration.
Cause 2 : If tax imposition is constitutional.
This is belonging to the jurisdiction of Court of Constitution.

Cause 1 shall doom the tax revenue officials subject to the Court of Criminal and the Court of Civil and Commerce in the consequences.

The professor must come out and make proper explanation on this point because his statement now cause big legal confusion.

COMMENTS
The action of the Democrat Party pressing the criminal charge to the cabinet, premier and the minister is the lawful action in both jurisdictions as well as the criminal court.
comment 8
Ian date : 06/07/2008 time : 18.05
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Does the Greek Acropolis belong to Greece or the Roman Colliseum to Italy, or does it also belong to the European descendants of the GraecoRoman Empire?
I think World heritage sites belong to the world, not to a particular country and should be administered accordingly.
comment 7
ernie9 date : 06/07/2008 time : 16.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ernie9

Comment 2 wch...Thanks for answering but I think you're confused !!
comment 6
Plaadip date : 06/07/2008 time : 16.06

WHC's comments are really helpful. Thank you and hope you to keep commenting on the issue.
comment 5
Plaadip date : 06/07/2008 time : 15.50

Can I ask something? What was the response of general public to the decision of the previous government to support Cambodia's unilateral regsitration to World Heritage? It didn't take me 5 minutes to find the documents in WHC's site, so it must not be a secret agreemnet. Was there a dobule-talk of the Surayut' governemnt, which is still claiming they sought for joint-registration? Or it was not imminet issue so people didn't care, wasn't it?
comment 4
wch date : 06/07/2008 time : 11.37

"Samak says govt opponents jeopardised Thai-Cambodian relations by playing up Preah Vihear issue."

Who is the real trouble-maker ???

The best efficient thing to this government is "Not-to-Do-Anything". If they start anything, it becomes a problem. The people will feed them, so called, "salary".

Why don't they jamnai 100,000 baht to each ministers for democracy promotion ?, let them leave country and ask them not to come back.

Then tomorrow, the instant peace in this kingdom.
comment 3
wch date : 06/07/2008 time : 09.54

You can change and find it interesting as,

Nakorn Panom - Angkor Phnom
Nakorn Sawan - Angkor Swaan
Nakorn Praviharn - Angkor Preah Vihear
Nakorn Rach-Sima - Angkor Jaya - Shiva
Nakorn Pathom - Angkor P'thom
Nakorn Sri-Thamarat - Angkor Sri-Thama-Raja.
and more,
comment 2
wch date : 06/07/2008 time : 09.33

Comment 1.

It is now called, either of NEGLIGENCE or SILENCE against the 1962 ICJ rulings.
In law, either of them shall not constitute a decision.

In other hand, the demarkation and the court rulings on the demarkation are regarded illegal in terms of various circumstantial conditions of it in terms of history, virtual occupation, ethnicity, absurdity of ownership.
One of them is that 1962 ICJ of Hague was ruled by communist nations and their judges and then-Kampuchea was a hardcore of communists republic led by the communist prince Nordohm Sihanouk in this Indochinese Peninsular.
Thailand was the last " Domino Card" on the verge of communization after whole neighbor nations were fallen in hand of hardcore Maoists.
Consequently such imminent crisis of system preservation of nationhood might have Thailand seconded the issue but in other hand they unfalied the evidental diplomatic efforts - preserving the territory of the castle - through New York's United Nation.
One must recall the atrocious civil conflicts inside Kampuchea during 60s - early 90s and the castle was the refugee center of running Kampuchean civilians. Thailand had contained such refugees of 400,000 and gave them foods and shelters during that time.

Angkorean Civilization of AD 5-15C and its remains belong not only to Kampu, Khmer (Kamen), Mon and Malay (major of racial groups of modern Kampuchea), but also belongs to Tai, Siam, lao, Kha, Hmong, Burmans, Viet or many more.

Angkor means Nakorn in Thai language, meaning CITY.
Nakorn Wat and Nakorn Tom are not the Vishnuic Temple but the political governing house where the Raja (Jaya) domains, pray to god in temple, buried him in underground tomb.

Angkorean Civilization is equivalent to Hellenic civilization (Geco-Roman civilization) of BC 500 afterward and deeply rooted in both of north eastern Tangsan civilization of BC 1000 - BC 200 of Shantoong peninsula and the northern Indian civilization of same era of Buddhistic era of BC 500 thereafter.
All of such civilization were based on modern conceptual city-state in form of federations of many emerites, and developed modern city planning and architecture, civil engineering techniques.

In Ankorean dysnasty there was no military expedition and conquerances over small 'Muangs' but the smaller muangs were voluntarily confederated to Ankorean rulers in view of its highly developed political structure and culture supremacy.

Indochinese peninsula without Ankorean civilization ( in succession of Oc Eo's Tungusic Kampu migrants culture of Funan kingdom), was virtually the savage status.
comment 1
ernie9 date : 05/07/2008 time : 19.20
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ernie9

... I wonder whether Thai governments since the year 1962 until the present government ever accepted the World Court judgement concerning sovereignty over Preah Vihear. If the Thai government does then what Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama did was not wrong.

... Be remind that Cambodian government never ever accepted that there are any overlapping areas or no man's land. Talking to Khmer,therefore, is really tough.
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