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Thai Talk

Analysis and comments on political and current affairs
Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ThaiTalk

Posted by Yoon , Reader : 1245 , 21:50:09  
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Click to watch Sondhi Limthongkul, a leading member of People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), reading a 12-point statement against the Samak government on the fifth day of the rally...this time, announcing that PAD will raise the level of the fight to push out the Samak government, which the statement describes as a "puppet of the Thaksin regime...."

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comment 24 wch date : 09/06/2008 time : 09.42

Ian, 20 The problem of such philosophical terminology is, in fact, the language problem in cross culture. Any conception must allow the gap of tolerance and the gap of reconstruction. The difference shall not be the bad part but most of foreign bloggers here would take it the wrong thing, here what Thai people are doing.

comment 23 wch date : 09/06/2008 time : 09.42

Ian, 20 The problem of such philosophical terminology is, in fact, the language problem in cross culture. Any conception must allow the gap of tolerance and the gap of reconstruction. The difference shall not be the bad part but most of foreign bloggers here would take it the wrong thing, here what Thai people are doing.

comment 22 wch date : 09/06/2008 time : 09.42

Ian, 20 The problem of such philosophical terminology is, in fact, the language problem in cross culture. Any conception must allow the gap of tolerance and the gap of reconstruction. The difference shall not be the bad part but most of foreign bloggers here would take it the wrong thing, here what Thai people are doing.

comment 21 wantmy$ date : 06/06/2008 time : 15.24 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/future

Hi Ian, well after starting the longest, most read and most brutal web blog in Nation history, I took a holiday. Along the way got disenchanted by the hoola hoola of Thai politics. I remember when I first arrive in Thailand, there was an election going on and there were concerts and night blazar everywhere, I was only staying in Pattaya. Yep those were the good days of campaigning. You are right Asia does not have any equivalent when human diginity, rights and justice are concerned. Freedom of speech is not free, equality never existed. Even where the most advanced states in Asian does not have those basic value despite being written in black and white. Asia will catch when those old goats die in a generation or two, by then the east european states would have achieved developed status. As you can see, everyone walks in snail pace, not much of progress in any areas. Indonesia after robbing its own people is now robbing foreigners, Burma is out cast good-for -nothing, phillipines is hungry for more rice but does not intend to grow them, Vietnam is about to commit economic suicide, Laos is out of touch uncontactable, Cambodia is a lonely child, Brunei is happy to get joy ride with Singapore, Malaysia is morphing into the incredible monster (cartoon network) and where that leaves Thailand? Its like a hollywood tv soap drama, its better than Dallas, Sex and the City. I hope your stay in Thailand have been a happy one, it still will cost you more than last year.

comment 20 Ian date : 05/06/2008 time : 20.43 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

Hello want my dollar, where you been hiding all this time? wch, so many western concepts have no Asian equivalents, and so many Asian concepts have no western equivalent. Even basic words like democracy, patronage, freedom of speech, equality etc may be translated but the underlying concepts are not the same.

comment 19 wantmy$ date : 05/06/2008 time : 02.34 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/future

Why hasnt Sondhi stop all his rumblings, he aleady brought down Thaksin government, send in the military to rule for 18 months. If he have salt to rub with Thaksin, why hasnt he use the supreme court to sue Thaksin since Thais trusted the court and leave everything to them. Even your king also ask the supreme court to settle the problem, well it certainly took away some of Temasek assets, here we call it day light stealing. Thaksin is now back in thailand and he busied himself with running the manchester city football club, dont think he has time for thai politics. If you own a multi million dollar world famous club, I doubt he is stupid to tarnish it with the squabbles of thai politics. It amazing thais have the mentality to turn back time to the good old days of over throwing every elected government, the rest of the world have moved on. Even the former soviets states are doing better than some asian countries. Perhaps like what you said, thailand partronage system of helping themselves to the King's treasures. Poor king doesnt even know he got rats in his palace. Thais are getting lazy and want the easy life without the hard work, they share the same traits as malaysian, both need to learn from china and india. Attending sondhi's hoola hoola and going to PAD street side convention is glamorous, ever wonder what these "delegates" does for their next meal? If politics can feed your family and give you and your children future, there should have more of it all over the nation. Meanwhile, lets takeover all the foreign companies and sell them for own greed.

comment 18 wch date : 04/06/2008 time : 09.38

Ian, The word, "Patron" started in virtue but by time, corrupted and today it is nearer to a crime syndicate, only seldom used as restaurant regulars. In US, they dont use this word but sponsor or supporter. Thai equivalent is UPARAT (อุปราช), Upa Racha, meaning the regent or the veceroy on behalf of the ruling king. Uparats, generally pricelings, were sent to each provinces or the submissive Chao Muang or Koon (เจ้า เมือง, ขุน), (cf, Emir of an emerite) were re-appointed as Uparat to own muang (Many of the southern muslim, esan and the north provinces and today some of the 'Emir' descentants turned to political patron in their own provinces). Koon Nang (ขุน นาง) is an influential nobleman related to the royal family in the lineage and some of them sit at the departments (the old department or ministry were ruled by the princes or Uparat). Jakrapob made mistakes between Thai vocables and English.

comment 17 Ian date : 03/06/2008 time : 11.01 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

wch, the basic problem with a patronage system it that anyone can buy into it, it is not based on either ability or knowledge but purely on wealth.

comment 16 wch date : 03/06/2008 time : 10.10

Ian, " revenge and making merit ", yes, it could be the common personality of general Thai people. This is the traditional glue to unite a certain group of people who share same interest. You can name it as a patronage system. You may look at the police department. All of Chamlong, Thaksin, Seri, Yoobamlong, many of politcal leaders keep their own strings inside of the department and they are trickly balanced now. They cannot do anything and that is why the armed force is needed beyond the constitution. Early as you said, this patronage exist even in the British and in US. The difference is the degree of the rationale and the morality of practice.

comment 15 wch date : 03/06/2008 time : 10.01

Felix, You said, "Otherwise, you are just repeating the baseless "common knowledge", which is as ill founded as most common "knowledge",". General comments to Felix idea. You have seriously distorted standard to look at the world. Your temptation is to make yourself holding a faith, then discriminate the different view. Who taught you the way ? wch To sell communication signal to foreigner is illegal and same in many other countries because of its nature. Thai government forfeited the sales money now. This is enough to your accusation. You said, "It was definitely injured by the resulting coup." Why dont you substantiate if the coup not be ?. At that time, coup was the last choice, the bad out of the worse. Thai military didnt come out to hold power for own power grabing, but a breakthrough on the planned, bloody riots. The history will prove this.

comment 14 wch date : 03/06/2008 time : 09.47

Felix, You said, Thailand's "puyai" system is disastrously bad for THailand. It is the excuse used to prevent democracy, to suppress free speech on matters of grave public concern and to keep the people in ignorance. *** Assuming you know the Phuyai's, first I oppose to your ideas of their negative influences in Thai political development. The population portion knowing of the democracy and holding its rights and duties is barely reaching to 5 million people out of 62 million population. This 62 mln can read barely only about their names. They can not read the daily newspaper and land title deed. 70 % of university graduates can not read a concentrated article of daily newspaper because of the difficulties of sanskrit and their meaning and the reading rules. (I know this because i worked with them for a long time. The reading is not culture here). The group of Phuyai's are the people of respected statemen, respected academics, respected priests and respected diplomats and senior journalists. I have never seen this group has pursued their own interests, nor distorting the principles of the democracy, nor siding to any political parties. British royalties were once the hamper to the proper development of democracy development as many were in European nations. This picture is easily slided into this Thai situation and they start out to take a look of Thailand, with such prejudice. East Asians nation have had their own, long democratic system since last two millenium. Their philosophy was to aim at building efficient governing body and all interreation among the participants. Western democracy was to have started out from the liberation of human beings that were inhumane-d, by heavier political, religious suppressions and economic exploitation. Asian democracy has been developed, by way of determining human relationship and their proper moralities, and the minimum, average rule, ie the law. In Asian philosophy, the morality rules over the written laws. Japan has no western value, in a whole of the democratic system. They mixed own political faith with western pragmatism. In a word, Asian people is selective. Thailand needs the guiding phuyai to improve, educate and guide the people to have healthy political consciousness to let them know their right and equally the duties. This is so called, guided democracy or instructive democracy that is the main principle of Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, Taiwan, Japan, Korea. Others rather chose different ideology, Socialism and communism but all of them want to make it in progressive mode, not by way of revolution. Europe took 500 years, East Asians took 2000 years, and I believe Asians have better one now.

comment 13 FelixQui date : 02/06/2008 time : 22.20 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/FelixQui

Yoon, Will you do your usual ill mannered act and totally ignore the comments made in response to your Blog post? You should note that as well as being very rude, such behaviour is in violation of the Nation's own guidelines for Bloggers!

comment 12 FelixQui date : 02/06/2008 time : 22.18 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/FelixQui

wch, (reply to some points in comment 5) Thailand's "puyai" system is disastrously bad for THailand. It is the excuse used to prevent democracy, to suppress free speech on matters of grave public concern and to keep the people in ignorance. There is no reason to think that your average "puyai" are better informed or more moral than any ordinary Thai citizen - or do you truly believe that not all Thai people are equal? That would make you decidely anti-democratic. Do you actaully beleive that the "puyai" are more moral than ordinary people? That they are smarter? That they have better ideas? (If so, you might explain why Thailand has developed so poorly and so very unequally under that system - or do you also believe that inequality is a good thing because it shows clearly who the "puyai" are as distinct from the lowly and impovershed peasants?) Taksin's cases are going through the courts, and until the evidence is actually in, you do NOT know whether he committed any wrong or not. I think he probably was corrupt, but probably not with the sale of Shin to TEmasak, which it the one that made all the serious money for him. If you have evidence the courts and prosecutors do not, you should present it. Otherwise, you are just repeating the baseless "common knowledge", which is as ill founded as most common "knowledge", but certainly common - in the worst sense of that word. Thailand was shaken up by Taksin. It was definitely injured by the resulting coup. Taksin may or may have injured teh country. I think he did, but not in the ways you think. He set a precedent that the rule of law should not be followed, with his drug wars and the like, and the people APPLAUDED that evil! That is one example of his real damage to Thailand. Recovering morality? I wonder you bring up such an idea. recovering morality requires an earnest commitment to things like democracy, the right to free speech, respect for due process, both judicially and politically, and an avoidance of narrow minded, self-serving moral monsters like Chamlong Srimuang, who is not a nice person. The PAD also seem fairly dead set against all of these principles. The principles you offered are, as Ian has noted, nothing more than revenge - a personlly motivated vendatta, with no concern whatever for the well being of Thailand or the growth of democracy or respect for human rights in Thailand. N.B. Please do not jump to any false and absurd conclusion that I am pro-Taksin or Samak. I am not.

comment 11 Lalida date : 02/06/2008 time : 17.22 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

religion, I'm not anything close to Piset, Yoon and the PAD.

comment 10 religion date : 02/06/2008 time : 10.23 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thefaith

Hi! Lalida, Your comment as though you are aggressive one.

comment 9 Ian date : 02/06/2008 time : 10.11 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

wch, I cannot understand Thai, other than a few phrases. But as I said in my own blog, revenge and making merit are the two faces of the Thai mental coin.

comment 8 wch date : 02/06/2008 time : 09.12

Ian, Although it is Thai language, click here and see it, http://www.oknation.net/blog/black/2008/05/31/entry-1 This is Yoon's blog about Gen.Prem and K. Thaksin in the funeral scene. I pasted one of many as an example. At footnote, the resumes, ความคิดเห็นที่ 23 รวงข้าวล้อลม วันที่ : 31/05/2008 เวลา : 21.22 น. http://www.oknation.net/blog/roungkaw กัลยาณมิตร เป็นสิ่งหาง่ายเสมอ แค่รู้จักคำว่า....ให้....และคำว่า...รับ เรื่องนี้เป็นเรื่องที่ไม่ได้ลึกอะไรนักหนาเลย เพียงแค่คนๆเดียว ยอมรับความจริง ที่ผ่านมาไม่สามารถเอาคืนได้หรอก การกระทำในอดีตไม่สามารถหวลคืนได้ แต่การกระทำในปัจจุบัน อาจจะส่งผลให้อนาคตมีที่ยืนก็ได้ ถ้าเจ้าของผู้กระทำ มีการยอมรับความจริง ว่าไปตามกรรม ตามเหตุตามผล ...ประชาธิปไตย ไม่ได้หมายถึงเสียงส่วนมาก แต่หมายถึง ประโยชน์ของคนส่วนมาก ซึ่งหลวงปู่ท่านพุทธทาสได้เคยพูดถึงประชาธิปไตยไว้น่าฟังมาก ว่า ต้องเป็นประโยชน์ของคนส่วนมาก ตรงนี้ ทรท พปช ควรตระหนักให้มาก ฝืนประเด็นนี้ไม่ได้หรอก ถ้า พปช ยังยืนหยัดที่ทำเพื่อประโยชน์ของคนๆเดียว การประท้วง การชุมนุม ไม่มีทางหมดสิ้นค่ะ เพราะทุกอย่าง ต้องเป็นไปตามกระบวนการ อดีตนายก ต้องผ่านกระบวนการยุติธรรม และรู้ดีรู้ชั่ว รู้คำตัดสินว่าเป้นอย่างไร จึงจะมีการเลือกตั้ง ถ้าอดีตนายก ผ่านกระบวนการยุติธรรมแล้ว การเลือกตั้งวันข้างหน้า ผลออกมาเป็นอย่างไร ก็ต้องยอมรับ การเมืองมันเอียง ระบบชุมนุม ก็ดำเนินไปเรื่อยๆ จนกว่า การเมืองมันจะเอียง จะยังไง ก็ต้องยอมรับ อย่าหนีความผิดเลย หนีไม่ได้หรอก He (Thaksin) may not mend his past deed but if he does good from now on, he can find a place to stand. He must not intervene the judiciary process and he must honour it. It is not the matter, in the future when he wins the elction and rule this country again. Galayani Comments. Thai people have healthy political consiousness.

comment 7 Ian date : 01/06/2008 time : 10.33 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36

wch, your arguments are all the same all you do is cry, revenge!, revenge!. All you care about is your injured middle class morality. In the meantime Thailand disintegrates around you and you cheer the process on. Perhaps this is what you want, perhaps the Japanese are waiting to step in and pick up the pieces, hoping to beat China to it.

comment 6 wch date : 01/06/2008 time : 08.17

As a temporary breakthrough, I hope H.E.Khun Anand Panyarachoon be invited to lead the government. wch

comment 5 wch date : 01/06/2008 time : 08.04

A family or a corporate morality can be harnessed within with commitments of doing better in future. This is possible because such institutions are of patrefamilias or of hierarchy. Poltical marality is different. It is open and must be verifiable and irrevocable in general consensus. We all saw it vividly in the episodes of the US Watergate and Nakasone-Lockheed cases, and now dozen of governments face same morality problem of the leadership. Thailand has unique patrefamilias of national level, so called, "Phu Yai's" who watch out the people and the trend of the social values, here of Thailand, in main principles of the buddhistic faith, the Boonkoon and the Gatanyu, 6 jewels of the Barami, Tharma and Kharma. Thaksin ignored all of them. When he sold his asset including the unsellable communication signal, people came out and denounced his morality. This time, he must have retired by handing over the ill-gotten wealth to the people. Instead he came out the pretty unquestioned answers - the legal conformity and keeping democracy, then dissolved the parliament, more correctly dismissed the innocent members of the parliament who spent heavily own money for election campaign. When the people saw, Thaksin made monetary compensation to the dismissed MP's of his own party, People was blasted and crossed never-return-bridge. Thailand was injured fatally by Thaksin. Thailand needs the intensive curement by punishing the anti-society people. This is the recovery of the morality. The compromise can be arranged but unconditionally. Punish Thaksin first, forfeiting the illgotten money permanently and let him leave this country or retire the politics permanently. This is the curement. Otherwise, If Chamlong is gone, his son will come out and his grandson, say all Thai offsprings will stand in street, only to hold this principle and until their hurt pride is cured.

comment 4 MaxHeadroom date : 31/05/2008 time : 12.01 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/maxheadroom

I have never been a proponent of middle class morality as role model for everyone. Nor of moral superiority based on power or consensus. This is for simple minded people. Morality is not absolute but rather very relative and very subjective. There are hardly any glorious morality role models among Thaksin's rivals as well. Likewise ethical standards of those claiming to oust Thaksin because of his bad influence on morality might be considered low as well by others watching from a different angle. It's difficult to claim to be the most charming of all rats in the canal. It is apparent how easily people shoot in on one topic and go on their personal crusades. Personally, I don't find the morality campaign by some senior citizens a suitable tool to deal with the problems in our country. Not last because it is misleading and biased and based on a very subjective value framework that would easily have people polarize because of different views but not necessarily ethical standards. But as with wch - it got stuck like a broken record jumping back the same part of the song in an endless loop.

comment 3 wch date : 31/05/2008 time : 09.31

Now, the goal is clear. They must list one by one, all the list of the morality failures of Thaksin and his collaborators. The morality has no compromise. Only thing to serve it is to recover it. When it is recovered fully, people feel happy, then the kingdom can take another step forward. wch

comment 2 Lalida date : 31/05/2008 time : 01.27 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

Hip Hip Hurray! Now we can see Bloodshed....

comment 1 Lalida date : 31/05/2008 time : 01.25 http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/Real

WOW, It does surprise me....

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